Posts by John

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

John_Mann

Those are concepts that wholly absent from the early christian writings, including the gospels.Your philosophical speculation is as good as anyone else's.

The Catholic faith it's not based only in early Christian writings.

And it doesn't meet the challenge anyway: Since you claim that god creates every soul at the moment of conception, then the destiny of each soul rests under his wing.

No. Every soul has free-will.

Including abandoning such soul to a supposed hell of nihlism.

It's a personal free choice. The first requirement is to accept the existence of God. This requires the same faith applied to the axioms of the scientific method. Is it that hard?

Again, why would a god of love and justice do that? After all, that soul didn't ask god to come to existence.

This is a ridiculous teenager whining. The human nature is designed to pursue perfection (you need to exist to do that). You need a great amount of will to fight against this default feature of human nature.

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

John_Mann

Why would a good of love and justice subject anyone to an eternity of punishment for wrongful deeds that were practiced during a few decades in the material life? Such god would lack basic decency.

There's only two options: God or nihil.

The highest level of your will, the center of your intentions, will be fixed at the time of your death. There's no free-will after death.

The Christian eternity is not an infinite amount of time but the absence of physical time.

The pursue of nihil is Hell.

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

John_Mann

According to christians these natural laws were designed by god.

Outside the physical universe in a metaphysical way.

Free-will has nothing to do with it.

Free-will needs natural laws.

If you affirm that god acts in the world you have no way out of this dilemma. If you don't affirm that god acts in the world then you are not a christian.

God acts in the world continually in a metaphysical way. Every soul is created by him at conception. Sometimes there's a special act against natural laws that's called a miracle. But a miracle primarily has the purpose of something about salvation of souls.

Why God does nothing about natural evil? Actually he already did.

There's a Buddhist saying that if you want all the ways padded you just need to pad your feet.

God has padded us with immortality. Your consciousness, the higher levels of your intellect and will are not destroyed by a tsunami.

A tsunami can only give you some few minutes of pain and agony but can't damage your immortal soul. But your soul can be subject to an eternal dreadful state.

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

John_Mann

Designing a world with all the benefits of plate tectonics but without the earthquakes would be child's-play.

Are you saying this physical universe is ruled or guided by direct intelligent design?

I think the physical universe is ruled by impersonal natural laws. Only these natural laws were designed metaphysically outside the physical universe.

And these natural laws probably are necessary for the best world to harbor free-willed agents.

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

John_Mann

Any intelligent deity could design a world without tsunamis.

How do you know that???

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

John_Mann

Hell is the lack of God. Hell is the nihil (read about the Jewish concept of TzimTzum).

The human nature was created to pursue the truth and submit the human will to it. Jesus is the truth. If you don't want to follow the truth you can't be with God. So God respect your will and leaves you to pursue the nihil. That's Hell.

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

John_Mann

I would would rate all of them above 5 and I would put natural evil at the top of the chart with a 9 out of 10.

You're right about this rating. The problem of natural evil is the hardest in theology.

But natural evil is a by-product of natural laws. And natural laws probably are a necessity in a world suited to free-willed agents.

Necessity truths are universal in all possible worlds and come directly from God's nature and not God's will.

IMHO natural evil is a necessity in a world of free-willed agents. But they are temporary in the lifetime of people and I believe the ultimate God's will is to achieve a greater good. Just like parents submitting their children to painful medical procedures.

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

John_Mann

I also think that, if such a loving god exists, then he should be able to forgive my lack of belief, because, I have done nothing to warrant eternal punishment.

In the Catholic view there's what is called invincible ignorance. Ignorance not by lack of education but because there are agents who put some kind of metaphysical blinders. Some of these blinders are the folk Christianity that is very insane. Atheism is valid for a lot of interpretations of Christianity.

And if such deity should deem me worthy of eternal punishment just because I couldn't believe, well ... then such a petty god wouldn't deserve my worship anyway.

Hell is not a punishment. Is a choice. C. S. Lewis said the gates of hell are locked from inside.

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

John_Mann

Empirical evidence is objective fact.

If you really think this so you're plainly wrong. There's no objectivity without subjectivity. Empirical evidence is produced by the scientific method which in turn is built with metaphysical axioms chose by consensus of subjectivity.

What you call objectivity is a consensus among people who subjectively (through faith) accepts the axioms of the scientific method.

My OP is an observation about all forms of theistic deity.

You have a very strange position about universal applicability. Actually you seem very addicted to the idea of a universal tool. Your analysis its not universal.

I am not objecting to a "philosophical system" I am objecting to claims that theists make about god.

If you're objecting to theism so you're objecting to a philosophical system. I don't understand your denial.

To say that it is necessary is not an answer. Tsunamis are clearly not necessary.

Please read about necessity and contingency in philosophy.

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

John_Mann

The persistence of evil. There's no compelling enough reason that an Almighty and all-loving god would tolerate the persistence of evil, natural or caused by free-willed agents.

I mean any individual can only be subject to a finite amount of evil in its temporal lifetime.

And why does god need that humans (again, mediators) explain to other humans why god tolerates evil? Why can't he clearly tell that to everyone, directly?

Are you talking about the God's will or the existence of God?

Why someone choosing to speak through mediators implies its non existence?

The god of the bible doesn't necessarily demands my reason, but clearly demands my faith, or my belief in unsubstantiated claims.

As I said this is just an interpretation. A very crazy interpretation.

Actually, it demands that I chose faith over reason, should both be in conflict.

My position is that is impossible to faith and reason to be in conflict. If they are it means your faith or/and your reason are wrong.

John_Mann

Posts by John_Mann