Posts by John_Mann

posted

496
This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe
by cofty in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.
John_Mann

1. At what point did the beings in heaven stop having free will?
Some point before the original sin.
What caused this to happen?
It was revealed to the angels the humankind will fall and God himself would become a human. This implied angels to worship the human nature in God. Some of them didn't like that and rebelled.
2. What causes a person's free will to be removed when they go to heaven?
Total revelation. Total revelation means instant discernment and the vision of God. When a free-willed being sees God he can't anymore choose (between God and evil). Just like you don't have free-will between choosing a ton of gold or a pin. Free will needs natural laws and total privacy, that's why nobody can read your mind and why God is not totally revealed to us (almost hide).
Are God and Jesus eternal zombies too, lacking free will?
No.
496
This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe
by cofty in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.
John_Mann

What does the Resurrection have to do with the sign of Jonah? They are apples and oranges:
Jonah was still ALIVE while in the belly of the sea creature. Jesus was DEAD while buried in a tomb.
Jesus itself called his resurrection this way.
Further, Jesus' resurrection cannot be proven historically, it can only be proven theologically.
Exactly.
496
This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe
by cofty in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.
John_Mann

Did you receive this vision from God himself?
Idk. Probably not. But was with His permission of course.
What were the conditions under which you experienced this vision?
I was just relaxed. No drugs, alcohol, nothing. Normal conditions, inside my house, no depression, etc..
Were you praying?
No. I was agnostic at the time.
496
This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe
by cofty in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.
John_Mann

@deegee- I don't agree with your interpretation.
There's no official position from Catholic Church about why Jesus was killed. It's a complete mystery.
As a human he was doomed to die. The original sin needed to be paid with his death. But maybe could be a natural death. There's about 4 views in CC about the crucifixion of Christ.
The text you mentioned is about original sin (the "generator" of all sins). Baptism removes the guilty of this sin because the death of Christ. But it doesn't removes the consequences. Actually all consequences of your sins need to be paid by you (here or in purgatory or both). This payment is through suffering under special conditions. The Catholic faith gives meaning to our inevitable suffering, no other system gives that AFAIK (the meaning to suffering was a goal to Nietzsche).
The removing of sin is about the guilty of sin (which is perdition, second death) but not the consequences of sin (suffering).
Basically you are confused about guilty and consequences of sin.
496
This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe
by cofty in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.
John_Mann

What was this 'revelation' then? I think an explanation of what it actually was will help me/others understand what you mean.
While private revelations from others can be helpful (like the apparitions of Mary throughout the world/history), they are mainly relevant to those directly involved.
The most important public revelation is the Resurrection, the sign of Jonah.
496
This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe
by cofty in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.
John_Mann

Did you say you'd had a personal revelation of some sort? I think I must have missed your explanation of this buried in this thread.
Yes.
My acceptance of theism is based on the St. Anselm's ontological argument + the Pascal's wager + a private revelation to me.
When I left the Watchtower in 2005 (I was almost a born-in) I felt a great revolt and abandoned theism as I knew it. I became an atheist but I thought it was a very arrogant position. So I became an agnostic and a "self service" believer.
Three years ago I experienced a vision and it made me to think better about spiritual things.
For my great surprise I realized I knew nothing about Christianity.
496
This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe
by cofty in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.
John_Mann

@deegee - the soul only have free-will while limited in physical world. While in physical world the soul can change the will until the last breath.
In the spiritual world there's no free-will anymore.
The angels once had free-will too. But at this point anyone in the spiritual world has what's called instant discernment and their wills are fixed according to their last will before death.
There are unlimited chances here but there's no second chance after death.
496
This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe
by cofty in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.
John_Mann

Why do you worship a god who cares nothing for physical suffering?
I worship the God who cares for physical suffering.
496
This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe
by cofty in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.
John_Mann

Jesus claimed that his god cared passionately about the physical suffering of humans.
He cares in the sense of an afterlife reward.
This cannot be grasped to those who only believe in a physical life.
496
This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe
by cofty in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.
John_Mann

Everyone is a believer.
Believing in nihil or oblivion is absurd IMHO.