John_Mann

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Posts by John_Mann

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  496

  This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

  various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

  i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

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  John_Mann

  I think that the Catholic Church would disagree with you on that point.

  Page not found.
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  496

  This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

  various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

  i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  John_Mann

  Please provide proof of this historical consensus - there are legends surrounding Jesus' crucifixion.

  You can start from here, plenty of references:

  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

  When I ventured into atheism the first thing I did was research about the historicity of Jesus. It was very frustrating realizing his existence and some events of his life is a majority consensus between historians.
• 
  496

  This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

  various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

  i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  !!!FTW The Catholic Church does not know why Jesus died?
  The Bible is very clear about why Jesus died.

  English is not my first language, but in the languages I know there's a difference between "killed" and "died".

  And I think there's a clear difference between "source" and "personal delivery".
• 
  496

  This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

  various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

  i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  What was the source of your vision then?

  God.

  To whom/what did God give permission in order for you to receive your vision?

  Idk.

  I see that you agree that there is no evidence outside of the Bible for Jesus' resurrection.

  Historical consensus about Jesus outside the Bible is only about his baptism and crucifixion.
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  496

  This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

  various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

  i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  1. At what point did the beings in heaven stop having free will?

  Some point before the original sin.

  What caused this to happen?

  It was revealed to the angels the humankind will fall and God himself would become a human. This implied angels to worship the human nature in God. Some of them didn't like that and rebelled.

  2. What causes a person's free will to be removed when they go to heaven?

  Total revelation. Total revelation means instant discernment and the vision of God. When a free-willed being sees God he can't anymore choose (between God and evil). Just like you don't have free-will between choosing a ton of gold or a pin. Free will needs natural laws and total privacy, that's why nobody can read your mind and why God is not totally revealed to us (almost hide).

  Are God and Jesus eternal zombies too, lacking free will?

  No.
• 
  496

  This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

  various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

  i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  What does the Resurrection have to do with the sign of Jonah? They are apples and oranges:
  Jonah was still ALIVE while in the belly of the sea creature. Jesus was DEAD while buried in a tomb.

  Jesus itself called his resurrection this way.

  Further, Jesus' resurrection cannot be proven historically, it can only be proven theologically.

  Exactly.
• 
  496

  This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

  various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

  i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  Did you receive this vision from God himself?

  Idk. Probably not. But was with His permission of course.

  What were the conditions under which you experienced this vision?

  I was just relaxed. No drugs, alcohol, nothing. Normal conditions, inside my house, no depression, etc..

  Were you praying?

  No. I was agnostic at the time.
• 
  496

  This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

  various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

  i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  @deegee- I don't agree with your interpretation.

  There's no official position from Catholic Church about why Jesus was killed. It's a complete mystery.

  As a human he was doomed to die. The original sin needed to be paid with his death. But maybe could be a natural death. There's about 4 views in CC about the crucifixion of Christ.

  The text you mentioned is about original sin (the "generator" of all sins). Baptism removes the guilty of this sin because the death of Christ. But it doesn't removes the consequences. Actually all consequences of your sins need to be paid by you (here or in purgatory or both). This payment is through suffering under special conditions. The Catholic faith gives meaning to our inevitable suffering, no other system gives that AFAIK (the meaning to suffering was a goal to Nietzsche).

  The removing of sin is about the guilty of sin (which is perdition, second death) but not the consequences of sin (suffering).

  Basically you are confused about guilty and consequences of sin.
• 
  496

  This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

  various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

  i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  What was this 'revelation' then? I think an explanation of what it actually was will help me/others understand what you mean.

  While private revelations from others can be helpful (like the apparitions of Mary throughout the world/history), they are mainly relevant to those directly involved.

  The most important public revelation is the Resurrection, the sign of Jonah.
  
  
• 
  496

  This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

  various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

  i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  Did you say you'd had a personal revelation of some sort? I think I must have missed your explanation of this buried in this thread.

  Yes.

  My acceptance of theism is based on the St. Anselm's ontological argument + the Pascal's wager + a private revelation to me.

  When I left the Watchtower in 2005 (I was almost a born-in) I felt a great revolt and abandoned theism as I knew it. I became an atheist but I thought it was a very arrogant position. So I became an agnostic and a "self service" believer.

  Three years ago I experienced a vision and it made me to think better about spiritual things.

  For my great surprise I realized I knew nothing about Christianity.