John_Mann

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Posts by John_Mann

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  496

  This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

  various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

  i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

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  John_Mann

  Is the Original Sin committed by Adam & Eve in anyway responsible for the evil which we see in the world today?

  Yes.
  
  
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  496

  This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

  various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

  i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  his therefore means that if Jesus was given access to the "tree of life" he would live forever as a human. It would therefore not be possible for him to die a natural death as long as he had access to the "tree of life".

  Idk. I was talking about the literal JW view on Genesis. I see Genesis as an allegory.
  
  
• 
  496

  This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

  various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

  i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  The angels still had free will AFTER the original sin was committed.

  Sorry if I was not clear but free-will about changing the choice between good and bad. The most important feature of free-will. They can't change their mind between good and bad but of course they have will about things in their main choice.

  God didn't have the foresight with regard to their eating from the tree of the knowledge of good & evil but he did in the case of the tree of life.
  Having the foresight to realize what would happen if Adam and Eve remained in the Garden of Eden, God takes the precaution of putting a barrier between them and the Tree of Life.
  God being omniscient proactively took steps to ban Adam & Eve from the garden of Eden after they sinned as he foreknew that they would eat from the tree of life and live.
  Yet he didn't foreknow that they would eat from the tree with the forbidden fruit and thereby take steps to put the tree with the forbidden fruit out of their reach - only the tree of life was deserving of such a proactive action.
  Or is it that God is not omniscient - not even of high intelligence - because he did not realize that without a moral sense, Eve and Adam would probably eat the fruit sooner or later? Any parent who puts a plate of cookies in front of their toddler and tells them not to eat any is aware of what the infant will do.

  Please read about molinism.

  So God took away their free will because they rebelled?

  No. Because they were exposed to a total revelation. Angels lost the free-will too.

  do have free will in this instance - I decided that the ton of gold was worth far far more than the pin and therefore chose the ton of gold instead of the pin.

  Nobody mentally sane would choose the pin. There's no freedom in this choice.
• 
  496

  This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

  various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

  i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  There's no official position from Catholic Church about why Jesus was killed." - John_Mann

  As I said is a complete mystery. Read again the 599 and 601 about his violent death.

  Obviously there was another possibility or possibilities because Jesus prayed for the possibility to get another option "take this cup from me".

  And the crucifixion made no sense to his disciples.
• 
  496

  This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

  various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

  i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  Your explanations regarding the loss of free will by the beings in heaven are interesting to say the least.
  Where did you get these explanations from? I do not see your explanations the Bible.

  Catholic Church.

  Jesus was a perfect human, he couldn't die from natural causes.

  That's a JW interpretation. Adam and Eve were "perfect" too but they needed the tree of life (to sustain their lives?).

  Mary has no original sin too and she probably died too.

  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dormition_of_the_Mother_of_God
  

  Every soul is perfect in structure that's why it's immortal.
  
  
• 
  496

  This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

  various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

  i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  I think that the Catholic Church would disagree with you on that point.

  Page not found.
• 
  496

  This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

  various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

  i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  Please provide proof of this historical consensus - there are legends surrounding Jesus' crucifixion.

  You can start from here, plenty of references:

  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

  When I ventured into atheism the first thing I did was research about the historicity of Jesus. It was very frustrating realizing his existence and some events of his life is a majority consensus between historians.
• 
  496

  This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

  various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

  i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  !!!FTW The Catholic Church does not know why Jesus died?
  The Bible is very clear about why Jesus died.

  English is not my first language, but in the languages I know there's a difference between "killed" and "died".

  And I think there's a clear difference between "source" and "personal delivery".
• 
  496

  This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

  various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

  i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  What was the source of your vision then?

  God.

  To whom/what did God give permission in order for you to receive your vision?

  Idk.

  I see that you agree that there is no evidence outside of the Bible for Jesus' resurrection.

  Historical consensus about Jesus outside the Bible is only about his baptism and crucifixion.
• 
  496

  This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

  various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

  i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  1. At what point did the beings in heaven stop having free will?

  Some point before the original sin.

  What caused this to happen?

  It was revealed to the angels the humankind will fall and God himself would become a human. This implied angels to worship the human nature in God. Some of them didn't like that and rebelled.

  2. What causes a person's free will to be removed when they go to heaven?

  Total revelation. Total revelation means instant discernment and the vision of God. When a free-willed being sees God he can't anymore choose (between God and evil). Just like you don't have free-will between choosing a ton of gold or a pin. Free will needs natural laws and total privacy, that's why nobody can read your mind and why God is not totally revealed to us (almost hide).

  Are God and Jesus eternal zombies too, lacking free will?

  No.