John_Mann

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Posts by John_Mann

• 
  583

  What is the purpose of life?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

  because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

  i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

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• 

  John_Mann

  
  

  No of course it isn't. (victim blaming)

  But cofty, I was not talking about the retribution's theodicy. I don't accept that too.

  Just like an abused wife, many of the victims of the tsunami look to the person who caused their suffering for relief.

  I was talking about this.

  You cannot simply affirm that their views are just a Stockholm's syndrome. This is, like you said, an unfounded assumption.

  You still haven't told me what you mean by "evil".

  Yes I did.

  But do you mean natural or man-made evil? I'm talking about both.

  If not, I don't understand why ask for my definition of evil.

  Do you feel the need of a comparison between definitions? Or do you use some specific definition?

  I think we are talking about the same definition when I mention evil. But you can tell me your definition of evil if you want some comparison.

  Bad things happen. They cause us physical and emotional harm.

  Yes, this is the very problem of evil. But WHY it happens in an atheist scenario?

  I don't understand why you think this poses any sort of challenge to my worldview.

  I can't know about your intentions of your own worldview.

  But when you says things just happen without known reasons you're accepting a mystical (mystery) cause.

  At the same time you says you don't accept mystery.

  JM - What was exactly the evolutionary pressure that made us the only specie to perceive evil?

  Cofty - Sorry but there are too many unfounded assumptions there.

  Please expand...
• 
  583

  What is the purpose of life?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

  because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

  i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  slimboyfat

  
  Also, how come we've adopted Viv's odd spelling of positivism?

  
  

  
  This topic created a new system of thought :

  Posovivism.

  :D

  
  

  
  

  
  

  
  

  
  

  
  
• 
  583

  What is the purpose of life?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

  because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

  i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  Ruby

  People in the area of the tsunami say that it is their faith that helped and helps them survive.

  Good point. The main view of the people directly involved in natural disasters share this view. This is the very conclusion from the majority of victims. This point must be considered.

  Cofty

  The opium of the people. Like an abused wife who begs for her husband's love.

  This is victim blaming cofty.

  You cannot blame people directly involved in the disaster if they find the faith in God explanation better than "shit happens". Rational minds search for meaning and these people chose not "shit happens", even under extreme circumstances.

  You cannot have it both ways. Mystery and victim blaming are out of your deck of cards.

  BTW, "shit happens" to me is an euphemism for secular mystery. So IMHO you can't even use the "shit happens" either.

  Instead you should scientifically demonstrate for us why our minds perceiving evil at all (natural and man-made) is an evolutionary advantage.
  

  What was exactly the evolutionary pressure that made us the only specie to perceive evil?
  
  
• 
  583

  What is the purpose of life?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

  because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

  i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  No one was choosing to die in the tsunami.

  True.
  
  
• 
  583

  What is the purpose of life?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

  because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

  i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  Blaming the tsunami victims is like driving a fleet of trucks into a crowd of men women and children and then saying that they only died because they were too stupid to get out the way fast enough.

  I agree with that.

  This view is called retribution and I don't accept that too.
  
  
• 
  583

  What is the purpose of life?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

  because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

  i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  Maybe we don't need to find life inherently absurd.

  Absurdism is inevitable.

  Every sincere thinker will reach Absurdism. But it's a crossing line not a stop.

  Nihilism and Existencialism are the next steps after Absurdism.

  Both theists and atheists are existencialists.

  
  
  
• 
  583

  What is the purpose of life?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

  because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

  i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  So.... it's not free will to be killed by a tsunami.

  This statement reminds that indeed I would die for my free will.

  Not only me but a lot of people in history actually died for only their free will but for other's free will.

  So I can make an assertion that free will is more important and valuable than mortal life itself.

  
  
  
• 
  583

  What is the purpose of life?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

  because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

  i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  Perhaps we are too much focussed on the importance of the individual asking for special status, intervention by the deity?

  I don't think we are hyperfocusing this problem.

  I think this is a central problem also the hardest one in theology and simply can't be watered down.

  This problem is a cause for life changing positions (like cofty).

  Apparently the problem could be supernaturally intervened without damaging free will. But the butterfly effect prevents me to accept this statement.

  
  
  
• 
  583

  What is the purpose of life?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

  because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

  i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  I really enjoy discussions with atheists. Great thinkers.

  I simply can't stomach "discussions" with pentecostals and their "where's written" at every word you say. Ironically everyone of them always brings "written commentaries" (litter-a-trash) along with the Bible. And "voices" speak to them what is not "written".

  Atheism is totally valid for this kind of people. Atheism is a great system of thought to expose the Sola Scriptura heresy.

  Thank you atheists and keep exposing these religions that are incompatible with rational thought and doesn't accept science (specially evolution).

  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontifical_Council_for_Dialogue_with_Non-Believers
• 
  583

  What is the purpose of life?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

  because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

  i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  Gentlemen, I think we reached the point of balance in our shared knowledge about the discussion.

  From this point is more a matter of choice (sbf) rather than being objectively right or wrong. Not in a relativistic sense but because we don't have more "fresh" (cofty) things about it. From now on our decisions upon the subject can be equated to decisions of our favorite colors.

  I would like to summarise our main points and I accept corrections if I'm wrong.

  1) Problem of natural evil proves God cannot exist. (cofty)

  2) Problem of natural evil does not proves God cannot exist. And it also does not proves God causes evil. (JM and SBF)

  3) If God exists, problem of evil proves God is a monster because He not just permits evil but He ultimately causes evil. (cofty and Nic)

  4) If God doesn't exist we have the problem of absolute void producing the universe. (Sbf and JM)

  5) Absolute void producing something/universe is not a problem. (Nic and cofty)

  6) Ruling out God and accepting absolut void producing the universe requires a kind of an extraordinary knowledge that we don't possess. Therefore we can accept mystery. (SBF and JM)

  7) Ruling out God and accepting absolut void producing the universe does not requires a kind of an extraordinary knowledge that we don't possess. Therefore we cannot accept mystery. (Nic and cofty)

  8) Is possible to exist a justifying reason for the problem of evils (natural and man-made). The two main defences are: accepting total mystery and accepting the immortality of soul. (JM and SBF)

  9) Right or wrong we will go back to the absolute void (oblivion) after our deaths. There's no possibility of afterlife in any sense imaginable. (cofty and Nic)

  10) If we're right. There's the dreadful possibility of eternal Hell for us after death. So Pascal's wager must be considered. (JM)

  11) With or without God the problem of evil persists. And there's no known solution even without God. (SBF and JM)

  12) Ultimately we are total responsible for our own free decisions. Free will exists, at least in our internal intentions and imagination. (JM, Nic, SBF and cofty)