John_Mann

Joined

• started 11 topics
• posted 1,225 times   see topics posted on
• send a message

Posts by John_Mann

• 
  583

  What is the purpose of life?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

  because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

  i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  There is no problem of evil if you take god out of the picture.

  There is no problem?

  Or no evil?
  
  
• 
  583

  What is the purpose of life?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

  because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

  i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  DJS
  I rest my case.

  Me too. What more can I say to a person who judges others by their appearance and clothing?

  Don't you know the concept of cultural clothing? This man man belongs to an ancient tradition from Middle East.

  I just can imagine what you could call a Buddhist monk in his traditional clothing...
• 
  583

  What is the purpose of life?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

  because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

  i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  I get up, go to work, have friends, make dinner, watch movies just like everyone else. And I get called evil.

  Me too but I was talking about in the context of the problem of evil. Evil still have no known explanation even in an atheistic scenario.
  
  
• 
  583

  What is the purpose of life?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

  because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

  i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  What is an "atheist scenario"?

  Sorry for my broken and clunky English. I don't speak English on a daily basis. I think " atheistic scenario" would be the correct form.

  Anyway I meant a description of what could happen without considering the existence of God.
  

  
  
• 
  583

  What is the purpose of life?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

  because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

  i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  I watched the video from Count Von Sheen, I mean Bishop Sheen. I'm trying hard to ignore the fact he reminds me of a creepy master of the house vampire just before he sucks your blood after the sun goes down.

  LOL!

  I think he would laugh at your description too!

  Bishop Sheen is considered to be the first televangelist.

  But he was the opposite of a vampire. He was a very kind and intelligent man. Sadly he was victim of jealousy by his superior Cardinal, but never tried to use his "celebrity" status to start a civil war with his Cardinal. If you read about this sad internal problem I'm sure you will change your mind about him being an evil vampire.

  https://youtu.be/-U3g1TzXgxM
  
  
• 
  583

  What is the purpose of life?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

  because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

  i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  Here's a nice speech from Bishop Fulton Sheen about the metaphysical explanation of origin and mechanics of evil :

  https://youtu.be/MBiuYd4lHH4
  
• 
  583

  What is the purpose of life?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

  because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

  i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  My position regarding the purpose of existence of the universe (including the origin and problem of evil, of course) consists in analysing the amount of explanations we have about it. Basically there are 4 metaphysical explanations I find them very interesting and sums up the reasonings of humans about cosmogony.

  The first one is found in the Vedas and Upanishads. Hinduism explains that the ultimate realist is Brahmam (not Brahma). Brahmam is perceived by some as a personal entity (God) and by others as a reality. Everything comes directly from Brahmam so everything is part of Brahmam. The evil in this cosmogony is the illusion of not being part of Brahmam. So the purpose in life is to be free from this illusion (Moksha).
  
  The second one is from Buddhism that says the ultimate reality is Sunyata. Sunyata is a kind of "pregnant void". Buddhism defines as a total mystery why there's something else instead of just Sunyata. They're concerned in stopping the suffering produced by the illusion of separation from Sunyata. Sunyata allows the existence of a very quintessential existence without the Three Marks of Existence. They call this "existence" as Buddha nature. Evil is perceived quite the same as in Hinduism. Buddhism is very complex but IMHO is a kind of mystical Nihilism.
  
  The Greeks (and Romans) believed that there was always a kind of special matter. This quintessential matter is personified as Chaos (by Ovid). Chaos sometimes is referred as a God and sometimes as a place or reality. Chaos created all the things from itself. There's no concept of void in this theology. That's why Romans didn't used the concept of zero (there's no zero in Roman numerals).
  
  In Catholicism there's a mentality to embrace everything known by man.
  
  The term comes from a combination of Greek words Kata (concerning) and Holos (totality, university, etc).
  
  The opposite of this mentality is Heresy. Heresy comes from a word meaning preference, chosen things. In Heresy you just accept things that you pick and choose.
  
  The Catholic cosmogony starts with God being the only reality.
  
  At some point God first creates a reality separated from himself. God there's no potencial to be fulfilled so He created a "reality" with infinite potency to be fulfilled. God first creation is the Nihilo. In JWism there's a logical problem of Jesus being the first creation of Jehovah. If Jesus was the first creation, Jehovah created Jesus from himself and by consequence Jesus would be just a person "inside" Jehovah. The logical conclusion of JWism is they believe in a kind of "binity". I'm an atheist regarding this JW definition of God.
  
  The Nihil is the first sphere of reality surrounding God. This is the Christian Nihilism. Is an abyss or chasm that only God can trespass. Like a black hole that traps even light, we can think of Nihilo as being capable to trap black holes. This reality was created directly by God to be the exact opposite of Him. Is a lack of God state or reality. But it cannot sustain itself so it must be sustained by God.
  
  From this point, God creates everything from this void. The first Creatio Ex Nihilo is the pure spirits. They were created in fixed spheres of existence. Their existences are fixed in their spheres in relation to a concept called Glory. Glory is heuristically defined as how much close you are from God (Grace can be used in this definition too). The opposite of this measure is Sin or Fall (how far you're from God). These ranks of pure spirits is defined by Angelology. Michael the Archangel is a pure spirit who was directly elevated in Glory by God after defeating Satan (who was in a higher rank). Animals are fixed in Glory too.
  
  After God created (Ex Nihilo) the material universe and set natural laws to this reality (Big Bang). By evolution life aroused and humans appeared. This is the Christian Materialism.
  
  In a recent point in human history God directly created the first soul in a human. From this point God directly creates the souls in the offspring of this particular human (Adam). The human soul is immortal because it is Created Ex Nihilo.
  
  So in Catholic theology God directly created the Nihil, the Pure Spirits, the Big Bang and every Human Soul. Because these are direct creations they are substantially perfect and cannot be destroyed or perish without God's will. But the existence of all these direct creations need to be sustained by God.

  How evil fits and was created in this theology?
  
  The most accepted tradition in Catholicism is this:
  
  In some point God revealed to Pure Spirits that the Human Soul would fall from its purpose and it would be redeemed by God Itself.
  
  And the plan of Redemption will be God becoming a human being to save humankind.
  
  At this point a highly rank Pure Spirit rebelled against this God's will. He simply could not accept the implication of worship a human and "worse" God would have a human body from that point. The human nature would cross the Nihil and enter in the very nature of God. He said that if God wanted to be humiliated and wanted to take a nature from His creation in this plan He could better become an angel but not a human. Indeed Mary achieved the highest rank in Heavens, a human being the most close creature from God.
  
  Humans face a similar situation in the doctrine of Eucharist (explained by Aquinas using the Aristotle's theory of substance).
  
  Then for the first time the possibility of evil was used (like the possibility of jumping from a balcony in a building). This Pure Spirit could not support to live in a reality where God would have a human body. So he jumped in the only reality accepted for him. He jumped into the Nihil. He made a Columbus' Egg doing that and other Pure Spirits followed him and later other humans too. Now Satan could be in the highest rank far from God and not be fixed in position of achievement. And he's very good in digging more and more.
  
  Like is said in Latin: Corruptio Optimi Pessima (the corruption of the best is the worst of all).
  
  This is the metaphysical explanation that I accept for the origin of evil.
  
  
  
  
• 
  583

  What is the purpose of life?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

  because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

  i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  
  

  No of course it isn't. (victim blaming)

  But cofty, I was not talking about the retribution's theodicy. I don't accept that too.

  Just like an abused wife, many of the victims of the tsunami look to the person who caused their suffering for relief.

  I was talking about this.

  You cannot simply affirm that their views are just a Stockholm's syndrome. This is, like you said, an unfounded assumption.

  You still haven't told me what you mean by "evil".

  Yes I did.

  But do you mean natural or man-made evil? I'm talking about both.

  If not, I don't understand why ask for my definition of evil.

  Do you feel the need of a comparison between definitions? Or do you use some specific definition?

  I think we are talking about the same definition when I mention evil. But you can tell me your definition of evil if you want some comparison.

  Bad things happen. They cause us physical and emotional harm.

  Yes, this is the very problem of evil. But WHY it happens in an atheist scenario?

  I don't understand why you think this poses any sort of challenge to my worldview.

  I can't know about your intentions of your own worldview.

  But when you says things just happen without known reasons you're accepting a mystical (mystery) cause.

  At the same time you says you don't accept mystery.

  JM - What was exactly the evolutionary pressure that made us the only specie to perceive evil?

  Cofty - Sorry but there are too many unfounded assumptions there.

  Please expand...
• 
  583

  What is the purpose of life?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

  because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

  i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  slimboyfat

  
  Also, how come we've adopted Viv's odd spelling of positivism?

  
  

  
  This topic created a new system of thought :

  Posovivism.

  :D

  
  

  
  

  
  

  
  

  
  

  
  
• 
  583

  What is the purpose of life?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

  because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

  i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  Ruby

  People in the area of the tsunami say that it is their faith that helped and helps them survive.

  Good point. The main view of the people directly involved in natural disasters share this view. This is the very conclusion from the majority of victims. This point must be considered.

  Cofty

  The opium of the people. Like an abused wife who begs for her husband's love.

  This is victim blaming cofty.

  You cannot blame people directly involved in the disaster if they find the faith in God explanation better than "shit happens". Rational minds search for meaning and these people chose not "shit happens", even under extreme circumstances.

  You cannot have it both ways. Mystery and victim blaming are out of your deck of cards.

  BTW, "shit happens" to me is an euphemism for secular mystery. So IMHO you can't even use the "shit happens" either.

  Instead you should scientifically demonstrate for us why our minds perceiving evil at all (natural and man-made) is an evolutionary advantage.
  

  What was exactly the evolutionary pressure that made us the only specie to perceive evil?