in the book mankind's search for god, the wt says the following:.
the oldest portion of the bible predates all of the world's other religious writings.
- chapter 1, paragraph 27.. .
But if you point this egregious error out to the WTS, you will be ignored. I remember studying the epic poem Gilgamesh in college. We were told it predated the writing of Genesis by at least a thousand years. Accuracy and responsible, verifiable research are not the hallmarks of the WTS.
Quendi
i am currently preparing for the public talk on sunday and as i was looking through the outline some these thoughts just keep popping up my mind that in the face of several allegations and numerous scandal, wbts has not stopped claiming to be god's organisation, i am wondering if they will ever realise that their strategies are no longer appealing to the general public.
regrettably, they keep on publishing and printing using victims of mind control hazards to the detriment of over 7 million rank and file members and spiritual illiterates in the society.
i keep on pondering on how long this malicious activity would continue.
I feel for men like mankkeli, Mr. Falcon and others in their position. I visited a friend Sunday who is now disfellowshipped like myself. Unlike me, he is working toward reinstatement. We got into a deep discussion about the validity of the WTS and to my surprise, he defended the organization despite acknowledging its many mistakes. My point is that for those on the inside, even people of high intelligence like my friend, it can be very difficult to take the blinders off, stop drinking the Kool-aid, and "grow a pair". I had to remember how my own spiritual journey began, how much ground I have covered, and the many challenges I have faced along the way.
Once we're out, or on our way out, we can forget how difficult leaving this cult can be. As I listened to my friend Mark spew the WTS line on the different issues and questions we discussed, I got to better understand how cult mind control works. Free will is squashed. The power of reason has no effect. The Public Talk is one of the tools of mind control the cult uses on the rank and file. Some may have 'zoned out' during Mr. Falcon's talk, while others may have lapped up every word, convinced that they receiving proper spiritual food.
I'm glad that Mr. Falcon has decided this was his last Public Talk. You're one step closer to declaring your independence, my friend. I wish you well on your ongoing journey out of darkness.
Quendi
my friends,.
i need your counsel on a personal matter, and i hope you will give it in love.
as some of you know, i was disfellowshipped six years ago, but it wasn't until june 2010 that i made up my mind never to return to the wts.
Thanks for your good wishes, paulnotsaul. I'm happy with the way things turned out despite the sometimes contentious talk. It could have gone very badly. The next move is up to Mark. I'd like to believe that he will want to see me again despite the religious gulf that has opened. I am happy that I let him know that my commitment to our friendship is unconditional. Maybe that will help him to do likewise.
Quendi
my friends,.
i need your counsel on a personal matter, and i hope you will give it in love.
as some of you know, i was disfellowshipped six years ago, but it wasn't until june 2010 that i made up my mind never to return to the wts.
I want to share what happened when I finally met "Evan" again after a six-year hiatus. Before I begin, I want to thank one and all for their love, support, counsel, and encouragement in this matter. I have learned a lot, and I hope that by relating this experience on this board others may benefit.
First, I should state "Evan's" real name. It is Mark and we have been friends since 1981. In fact, he was the very first friend I made when I moved to Colorado. When I rang the doorbell, his mother answered. She did not recognize me at first. I have lost more than sixty pounds since she last laid eyes on me so I look very different. She is also now in her early eighties and her memory is beginning to fail. After several seconds, she finally knew me and welcomed me inside. She then went to awaken Mark. Mark's reaction, upon seeing me was to give me a long, bone-crushing hug, and he told me how glad he was to see me once more. I then gave him my "peace offering" of the Colorado scenic roads booklet. He eagerly accepted it.
After exchanging such news as we had, the conversation took a decidedly sharp turn. Mark has been disfellowshipped. He is working toward reinstatement. He and his mother Verna asked me how much progress I was making toward that same goal. I wasn't expecting this question. In fact, I thought we would engage in about fifteen minutes of small talk before making plans to meet at another time and place where we could discuss heavier matters. After thinking about my reply I told them both that I had abandoned all efforts to come back.
The next ninety minutes were very interesting. They couldn't believe that I no longer wanted to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses. They tried their best to convince me that I was making a huge mistake. They asked me what was the root of my decision. I told them I no longer believed the WTS was God's organization. Furthermore, that organization was teaching falsehoods about God and his purposes, and I refused to participate in that kind of work. Mark then told me that I had succumbed to arrogance and pride, thinking I knew better than the men leading the organization. I countered by saying that those men had made innumerable mistakes and so could not be trusted. They said that they were only "imperfect men" and mistakes were bound to happen. I replied that if they were really led by holy spirit, as they claimed, they would not make such mistakes because Jesus had said that same holy spirit would lead them into all the ways of the truth, not merely some.
That will give you an idea of what happened during this phase of my call. Poor Verna got quite upset, telling me that I was an APOSTATE and should leave immediately. Mark, however, was much more calm. He repeated his assertion that I had succumbed to pride, but I told him it was very interesting that he could not point to any Bible verses to back up WTS teaching while I could freely quote to support my positions. He conceded that but still insisted on saying that we had to follow the "faithful and discreet slave" regardless of where it went. If mistakes were made, we had to wait on Jehovah to correct them.
I suppose what struck me most about this part of our visit was the fact that truly for the first time I could see how perverted, backward, and accursed the reasoning the WTS uses is. It's one thing to recognize the cult uses brainwashing techniques. It is good to admit those techniques worked on us and others. But for me it was entirely different to see how strong the grip the WTS exerts truly is. Here I was watching one of my closest friends, who himself was disfellowshipped, defend the practices, tenets, doctrines, and specious reasonings of the WTS. I felt sick at heart to observe this.
Had things ended on that note, I would have left with a very heavy heart. Instead, after long debate, Mark turned the current of our talk to another direction that lasted for another hour. We recalled old times, all the things we had done together, the love we three had and still have for each other. Mark told me that he had received my card and was very grateful for it. I reminded Verna how she had always treated me as her "fourth son", and that the love and affection I felt for her had not diminished at all. I still wanted to maintain contact, I said, but I would leave that up to them. Before leaving, I told them both, "You have my e-mail address and my phone number. Should you need anything, ANYTHING at all, please do not hesitate to call me. I'll come running." I do not think they expected to hear this from me, especially since the last thing Mark said to me was how I should carefully reconsider my positions on things lest I wind up rejecting Christ's ransom sacrifice and losing eternal life. I let him have the last word, saying, "On that note, I will say goodbye." We hugged and kissed each other one last time, and then I walked out and drove home.
So it was a "mixed bag" of a visit. I really don't know what to make of it. I think the deep feelings Mark still has for me are now in a state of confusion since he has heard me renounce the WTS in no uncertain terms. I feel I could not have done otherwise. I don't doubt he will continue his efforts to get reinstated, although he was quite uncomfortable when I condemned the entire judicial proceeding as unscriptural. "You won't find that in the parable of the Prodigal Son. Nor will you see any of the star chamber tactics the Society uses outlined anywhere in Holy Writ," I had said.
As for my feelings, I am very glad that I took everyone's advice and went to see my old friend. Where does our friendship stand now? I really don't know. But I felt it was important that I share my thoughts with him and allow him to see where I was in my spiritual development. I am sorry he is still a "company man", but I suppose I shouldn't be too surprised. I can only hope that I planted some seeds that will get watered, then sprout, and finally bear flower and fruit. One thing I will say is that at no time did I ever raise my voice, interrupt Mark or Verna while they were speaking, or mock anything they said. I believe that made a good impression.
It's now up to Mark. He knows how to reach me, and I believe he will mull over our talk for a long time. In the end, he may decide to stick with the organization. When his mother Verna expressed the hope that we might talk again, I told her I would be glad to do so at any time. "And," I added, " we need not bring up religion. For that is a subject on which I believe we can only agree to disagree." She gave a weak smile in response before I said my farewells to both.
Quendi
yikes...at work next week i will be spending an entire day in a room with a young jw woman.
(i work at an elementary school and we will be doing photocopying and other assorted things).
this young woman is a gung-ho witness but she is going to be going to college.
The stance the WTS takes against higher education is somewhat more nuanced than Quandry may believe. A person will not automatically lose "service privileges" if s/he gets involved with higher education. The directive states that if the children of an elder or ministerial servant enter college or university, then that elder or ministerial servant will have his privileges reviewed. The body of elders can then delete such a person, but that deletion is not an automatic thing. That is not to say that there are no repercussions to a man's decision to encourage or allow family members to seek higher education. The fact that his qualifications and privileges would be examined shows that. I don't doubt that some have been deleted, but it is up to the local body of elders to make that decision.
The WTS has sent headquarters staff to college for training in fields it wanted its people to have. And we all know the "cattle call" it put out for college-educated workers for its Patterson construction projects. So there is a love/hate relationship it has with higher education, although it must be said it hates college more than it loves it. The Society has never liked free-thinkers, and college educated people are too much into that for its taste. However, I think it fair to say that it may be finally paying the price for its hostility toward higher education. There is a real "brain drain" happening now.
Quendi
fyi.
from worldwide report a brother from wallkill shared during congregation may 10, 2010. .
there are now 16 printing branches in the world, all of them are electronically connected so if one branch had to shut down because of disaster such as an earthquake, all they need to do is transfer the files to another branch and shift the workload there.
Thanks, WingCommander, for sharing the 1989 Watchtower material. This is not the first instance of selective editing by WTS operatives, but it does prove that such a charge against the organization can be substantiated.
Quendi
my friends,.
i need your counsel on a personal matter, and i hope you will give it in love.
as some of you know, i was disfellowshipped six years ago, but it wasn't until june 2010 that i made up my mind never to return to the wts.
Thank you, my friends, for your comfort and counsel. Reading your posts has helped me decide that I will try one more time. I believe that what paulnotsaul has recommended will be my best course of action. I will go see "Evan" and attempt to talk to him in person. I will stop by on Sunday because I believe that will be my best chance to find him at home. I can also hope that the rest of the family will be at the meeting when I call. I will go to the Kingdom Hall on Saturday to learn what the meeting time is. I want to have all my bases covered.
I will also bring a peace offering, as it were. I have a booklet published by the Colorado Department of Transportation called Colorado: The Official Guide to the Scenic and Historic Byways. I know it is the kind of publication that "Evan" loves. He and I have traveled some of the routes the booklet features together on our "buddy trips" in the past. I hope that by giving it to him, he will see that I am sincere in wanting to salvage our friendship and put it on a fresh new footing. If he is alone, we might actually talk and make arrangements for a longer meeting at another time and place.
What I have read here convinced me that "Evan" will only respond to a direct, face-to-face meeting. The painful experience OnTheWayOut shared has warned me that there may be no happy ending. But that is a risk I must take if I am to have any kind of closure. I lost the best friend I ever had to suicide. He killed himself before I had the chance to tell him that I loved him one last time. If my friendship with "Evan" is to end, in whatever fashion that ultimately should take, I want to know that I did and said all I could.
My friends, thanks again. I'll certainly let you know how matters turn out.
Quendi
my friends,.
i need your counsel on a personal matter, and i hope you will give it in love.
as some of you know, i was disfellowshipped six years ago, but it wasn't until june 2010 that i made up my mind never to return to the wts.
I am reporting back on my effort to salvage the twenty-five year friendship I had with my friend "Evan". First, I want to thank all and sundry for their advice and suggestions. I am glad I solicited them. I know that I had to make this attempt because I needed closure one way or the other. So the input I received was instrumental in how I crafted the approach I finally used. I want to thank talesin particularly for her warm and helpful suggestion of the kind of message the card I sent to "Evan" should have.
I mailed the card last Thursday, 28 July. Since "Evan" lives only a few miles away from me, I figured it should have reached him no later than Saturday, 30 July. That would give him plenty of time to read it, consider the message, and make a reply if he wanted to get back together. Nearly a week has passed and I have received no word at all. No phone call, no e-mail, not even snail mail. I provided him with all the necessary information so that he could have contacted me if he had made any effort to do so.
So I now have to face the hard reality that this friendship and relationship is over. I am trying not to take the silence too personally. The reason I say this is because I know some of our mutual friends and acquaintances have also attempted to reach out to "Evan" and have been met by the same silence and rejection. That may indicate that he is struggling with deep issues that are hindering him from enjoying a normal, healthy relationship with other people. On the other hand, his lack of action may simply indicate a cold hard truth. He no longer wishes to renew our ties and rekindle our friendship.
In any case, I am now prepared to move on. I have done all that I could. I also believe that if "Evan" is so psychologically and emotionally impaired that he cannot enjoy our friendship again, then there is probably very little I can do for him. It may also be that associating with him again may put my own mental and emotional health at risk. I also know that if his circumstances change, I am ready to get together once more. But I cannot spend any more time pursuing something he clearly does not want at this time. The ball is firmly in his court, and I will leave it at that.
Quendi
if the 7 million jw's mindlessly follow the governing body (which the majority do), of what benefit is it to the governing body?
that power over people's lives is nothing to boast about in my books.
i conclude that the only reason they so desire this power is because it brings money, authority and security to them.
I thnk that Damn the Watchtower makes a valid point in comparing the lifestyles of any religion's upper echelons with the Governing Body of the WTS. Yes, they have free food, housing, health care, and clothing. Moreover, they have unlimited travel privileges. But there is no way to compare their dwellings in Brooklyn with the Roman Catholic Church's hierarchy in the Vatican, the bishops of the Anglican Church, or the leaders of the Mormon Church, just to name a few. Next to them, the Governing Body are small potatoes.
But the issue here is the exercise of power, and while the WTS certainly can't claim the number of followers the other three leadership collectives can, they have more than enough. They exercise that power subtly through the printing of the anonymously authored articles and books in WTS publications, speeches at different conventions, and congregation visits by circuit and district overseers. They also appoint all congregation officers. The fact that most Witnesses cannot name the seven sitting members shows just how effective this method of control has been. Thus, they can wield power and be shielded from the consequences of bad decision-making. It's quite a sweet setup.
In this way, they can claim that the WTS is truly "theocratic" since no matter what happens to individual members, the organizational structure survives and continues to function. So if someone dies, he can eventually be replaced without any impact on day-to-day operations. If a member is dismissed, as happened to Raymond Franz and Leo Greenlees, the organization doesn't skip a beat. The publications continue to be printed and distributed. Witnesses continue to attend meetings at which their ongoing indoctrination and brainwashing does not stop. The field ministry remains the focus of the religion's activity. All of this happens regardless of who occupies the executive suite in Brooklyn.
Quendi
years (many decades) ago, most jws knew what their religion taught.
they could go toe to toe with a minister or priest and make some good points.. i believe today's witness knows little about most of the convoluted teachings and revisions of the "truth".
yesteryear's witnesses got a 9/10.
I would have to go along with those who rank the knowledge quotient below 5. The number 2 sounds about right, and if the releases at this summer's district conventions are any indication, it's about to go lower.
Quendi
