Posts by Quendi

68

Interracial Marriage

by Quendi in

here is a question i want to pose because i do not know the correct answer.

i have seen many interracial married couples among jehovah's witnesses--moreso than i have seen in other religions.

however, i have been told that once upon a time, interracial marriage was frowned upon by the wts hierarchy.

Quendi

@NewChapter:

I hope your friend will judge you the same way and stop shunning you. That would prove that she really had learned the lessons you gave her.

Very few black people live around me here in northern Colorado. The congregations I served in Boulder were lily white. The number of black publishers in them could be literally counted on the fingers of one hand. But I was close to the Witnesses in those congregations who truly were color-blind. It was very refreshing. The two closest friends I ever had among the Witnesses were white men. One is of Irish-German heritage. The other, now dead, was Italian. It was the common interests and loves we shared that lay outside the religion's bounds that tied us together.

While the organization can today say its stance on race relations is better than what sees in the world as a whole, it still has a long way to go. I don't doubt that the 1973 Watchtower article I pasted in an earlier post is still its official stance on interracial marriage. Now that I'm out, I can see why that might be so. Despite standing up to Nazi and Communist tyranny, on the whole this organization's record on matters like civil rights is very poor. They went along with the flow, either by remaining silent while others paid with their life's blood to get equal justice under the law, or telling its membership that it had no stake in these matters but should "wait on Jehovah" to straighten things out. That was its position until and unless its own interests were threatened. Then it took a no-holds-barred approach to fight for what it saw as its rights. Only when society in general changed its attitude toward the civil rights movement did the organization think it safe enough to condemn racism and its attendant evils. They played it safe. I'm glad I'm no longer a part of it.

Quendi

49

Did YOU Feel Abused By The Elders?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i know some here have said they pretty much hated the elders.

did you personally feel the elders were abusive men?.

Quendi

Nowhere is elder abuse more practiced than in those star chamber proceedings they call judicial committees.

Quendi

25

News article: Watchtower buys another parcel

by AndersonsInfo in

jw
friends

http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?aid=/20110825/news/108250327/-1/sitemapwatchtower buys another parceljehovah's witnesses to exit brooklyn for orange county this is the former international nickel co. site in warwick that the watchtower bible and tract society purchased two years ago to be the site of its new world headquarters.

the former international nickel property is about six miles from the society's latest purchase, the one-time international paper property in tuxedo.by alyssa sunkintimes herald-recordpublished: 2:00 am - 08/25/11 .

the jehovah's witnesses organization is moving forward with its plans to move its world headquarters to the town of warwick.

Quendi

You guys just don't get it. The WTS is buying all this Hudson River Valley property because they are building the New World capital! Don't you see? Once these purchases are finalized, construction can start on the offices, facilities, and residences the "princes of the earth" and other resurrected ones will need to open those "new scrolls" which will contain orders from the heavenly government. So after Armageddon has wrecked the rest of the planet leaving its survivors the wonderful task of burying billions, clearing away rubble, planting crops, and building huts for themselves and the others who will be resurrected, the Watchtower elite will take up their rulership without having to be involved in that kind of stuff. Just think of all this as Beth Sarim and Beth Shan East! Isn't it obvious? I'm sure that's one possible answer the WTS will give its gullible followers as to why, with the End so close, it is involved in these land grabs.

Quendi

68

Interracial Marriage

by Quendi in

here is a question i want to pose because i do not know the correct answer.

i have seen many interracial married couples among jehovah's witnesses--moreso than i have seen in other religions.

however, i have been told that once upon a time, interracial marriage was frowned upon by the wts hierarchy.

Quendi

Hello Everyone,

I want to share my correspondence with Paul Grundy of the jwfacts website about whether the Society had ever directed that interracial couples be disfellowshipped.

Quendi

===========================================================================================================

On 23/08/2011, at 2:00 AM, Quendi wrote:

Hello Friend,

I was directed to you after raising this question in the JWN forum. I have been told that once upon a time, interracial marriage was not only actively discouraged among Jehovah’s Witnesses, but that any such couples were disfellowshipped. I have read various quotes on both Charles Russell’s and Joseph Rutherford’s views on race and they are disgusting. What I need to know now is whether there was an official policy on interracial marriage and what sanctions, if any, were taken against such couples. I would appreciate any information you can give me.

Thanks

Quendi on JWN

From: Paul Grundy [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, 25 August, 2011 07:38
To: Quendi

Subject: Re: Interracial Marriage

Hi Quendi,

I am not aware of interracial marriage ever being a disfellowshipping offence.

I have copied an article from the 1970's suggesting that interracial marriage may not be a good idea due to cultural differences, and how it may affect the preaching work.

Kind Regards

Paul

*** w73 12/1 pp. 735-736 Questions From Readers *** Questions From Readers

? What is the view of Jehovah’s witnesses toward interracial marriage?—France.

Jehovah’s witnesses at all times seek to reflect the Biblical view of matters. The Bible does not specifically discuss interracial marriage. It does, however, show how Jehovah God views humankind and it provides guiding principles for those considering marriage.

Superiority of race is nowhere taught or implied in the Bible. Jehovah God accepts as his approved servants people out of all races, without discrimination. The Bible tells us “[God] made out of one man every nation of men, to dwell upon the entire surface of the earth, and he decreed the appointed times and the set limits of the dwelling of men, for them to seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him.” (Acts 17:26, 27) “God is not partial, but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.”—Acts 10:34, 35.

So, the Bible nowhere implies that racial differences in themselves have anything to do with the properness of marriage. Of the remarriage of widows, the apostle Paul wrote: “A wife is bound during all the time her husband is alive. But if her husband should fall asleep in death, she is free to be married to whom she wants, only in the Lord.” (1 Cor. 7:39) Thus the Christian is free to marry anyone who is Scripturally and legally free to do so, as long as that one is truly a fellow believer.

Are there any other factors, then, worth considering? Yes, for Christians seek to exercise good judgment and wisdom in all they do. Among other things, they are encouraged to “go on walking in wisdom toward those on the outside,” those outside the Christian congregation.—Col. 4:5.

In many areas interracial marriages are becoming increasingly common. People are traveling more, and often find the ways and customs of people of other lands attractive. War, too, has played a part, and many European and North American soldiers have married Asiatic wives. There is, then, a somewhat broadened viewpoint on the part of many toward interracial marriage.

Nevertheless, not all persons share this broadened viewpoint, nor do all appreciate Bible standards. Many deep-seated prejudices remain in the world of mankind. A Christian, being realistic, must face life as it is—not as he wishes it might be.

In a few places, there are even laws making interracial marriages illegal. When that is the case, Christians are under Scriptural obligation to obey them, as such laws do not make it impossible for them to worship God with “spirit and truth.” (John 4:24; Rom. 13:1) Of course, if a Christian would prefer to move to a locality where such laws are not enforced, he is certainly free to do so.

In other communities, local prejudices produce discrimination and unkind treatment toward those of certain races of mankind. These prejudices do not make interracial marriage wrong. For the discerning Christian, nonetheless, they may give cause for thought as to the advisability of such marriage. No matter what the racial backgrounds of the mates, marriage of itself requires much adjustment on the part of both persons to be successful and to bring happiness. Human imperfection causes all marriages to bring some measure of ‘tribulation in the flesh,’ as the apostle Paul wisely points out. (1 Cor. 7:28) In certain localities, where racial prejudices are strong, this could put added strain on the marital relationship and could be especially trying for any children resulting. So the Christian should give thoughtful consideration to the probable consequences before entertaining the prospect of interracial marriage.

Persons of different races may have very similar backgrounds, culturally, socially and as to education. Or their backgrounds may be very different. Sometimes the varied habits, attitudes and customs that go with different backgrounds seem to add interest to the marriage union. Yet widely differing backgrounds, even among marriage mates of the same race, can and sometimes do give rise to problems, making marital adjustment more difficult. In making his decision, the Christian should also rightly weigh these factors—for the other person’s happiness as well as his own.

The Christian is under obligation to proclaim the good news of the Kingdom to others. (Matt. 24:14; 28:19, 20) As a factor, then, he may consider whether or not interracial marriage is likely to create a seriously adverse effect on the attitude of the people in his community toward this Kingdom-announcement work. The examples of Christ Jesus and his apostles show that they were willing to forgo things to which they had a right rather than severely hinder persons from being receptive to the truth of God’s Word.—Rom. 15:3; 1 Cor. 10:32, 33.

However, after weighing all these factors thoughtfully, each Christian must make his own decision—in good conscience and motivated by love for God and for his neighbor.

Hello Paul,

Many thanks for your reply and I will be sure to share it with others. I started a thread on this topic on the JWN website and it has generated much discussion. Your research will help many learn what the WTS viewpoint on this has been.

I found the reply in the “Questions From Readers” to be disturbing and hardly one that takes the moral high road. Telling Christians not to enter into interracial marriages because the state has banned them is wrong. The excuse the Society gave was that such a ban does not interfere with a Christian’s worship of God. But it most certainly does if a person’s future happiness is connected with the choice of a marriage mate. To tell people they should sacrifice their happiness to comply with some hateful and manmade law is wrong.

And the Bible does talk about interracial marriage, although in a way the Society doesn’t want to acknowledge. Moses was in an interracial marriage. His wife Zipporah was a Cushite woman. This was a source of irritation and friction between Moses and his older sister Miriam, leading to Jehovah taking disciplinary action against her. (Numbers 12:1-16) Did Moses think that he shouldn’t marry Zipporah because of the opinion others would hold about this? Did he let cultural differences stand in the way of his love for her? Absolutely not! This is not to say these factors shouldn’t be weighed but that they cannot be the overriding consideration.

Given the racist views both C.T. Russell and J.F. Rutherford held and published in The Watchtower, I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised by the answer the Society gave to its French correspondent. Compared to their thinking, some might believe that answer to be enlightened. However, when compared to what the Bible actually teaches, teachings the Society acknowledges are the only standard a Christian should follow, the answer given in this case is inadequate, incomplete, and insufficient.

Quendi

16

Wish PaulNotSaul wife a speedy recovery

by TotallyADD in

jw
friends

talk to paulnotsaul last night and found out his wife was in the hosptial.

it was very serious but she is going to be ok. this is our opportunity to wish her well.

get well soon mrs. paulnotsaul.

Quendi

My very best to both paulnotsaul and his dear wife with blessed days to follow.

Quendi

29

Cycles of Armageddon Hysteria

by Jeremy C in

when i departed the organization in early 2006, i was giving some serious thought as to why jehovahs witnesses were going through a period of heightened expectation of armageddon.

the district convention theme for 2006 was "deliverance at hand", and it was announced by the governing body that a stinging message would be carried out against "false religion" in the fall through a tract campaign.

certainly throughout the organizations history, convention talks and watchtower publications have always used manipulative tactics in urging a sense of urgency; even in times of relative peace.

Quendi

Another great thread, JeremyC. Thanks.

Quendi

95

Earthquake

by Billzfan23 in

jw
friends

just felt a tremor in boston and was on the phone when it happened with a coworker in dc - shook the building there :).

must be the last days!.

Quendi

Thanks for the hazard maps, ziddina. As for the bedrock information, I had understood the same way you did about liquefaction and how bedrock resisted that. But I had read something to the contrary elsewhere that I can't recall. I'll try to locate it. New York is still a high hazard zone, however. The middle of the city has been built in an area where liquefaction is most likely. I wouldn't want to be in that part of town if a big tremblor struck.

Quendi

95

Earthquake

by Billzfan23 in

jw
friends

just felt a tremor in boston and was on the phone when it happened with a coworker in dc - shook the building there :).

must be the last days!.

Quendi

Most people don't know that the northeastern United States as well as Canada's Maritime Provinces and Gaspé Peninisula is an earthquake zone on the same order as the more famous ones on North America's West Coast. The difference is that it hasn't been as active in historical times. Should a big one strike New York City, deaths would probably run into the hundreds of thousands. It's not just because the building codes don't mandate taking quakes into account, but also because of the underlying bedrock. It is extremely hard and a major quake would cause it to shatter. So the damage would be extensive and massive.

Another earthquake zone that doesn't get much mention is the New Madrid fault along the Mississippi River in Missouri. The last major tremblor there was 200 years ago in 1811. A major quake now would wreck St. Louis and Memphis for sure and more than likely scores of other towns and cities. The death toll would be significant there as well. Of course, when it comes to earthquakes, there's no place on our planet's surface that is immune.

Today's quakes in the American Northeast as well as in southern Colorado and northern New Mexico were notable because there have been so few there in historical times. Geologically, it's another story, particularly in Colorado and New Mexico. The area in those states that was hit today is littered with many extinct volcanoes and calderas. The second largest rift valley on the planet--only the Great Rift Valley running from Syria to Mozambique is bigger--lies in the region. West of Albuquerque, New Mexico lies one of the most extensive lava fields in the lower 48 flanking both sides of I-40. I myself have visited some of the old volcanoes in Colorado and New Mexico. They're quiet now, but should they ever awaken...

I'm out here in northern Colorado along with Magwitch and didn't feel this morning's tremblor. It will be interesting to see if the WTS tries to tie in the day's events with its end-of-the-world eschatology. I wouldn't be surprised is someone in Brooklyn, Patterson, or Wallkill isn't working on some kind of angle right now.

Quendi

21

Poisonous Congregations and Incompetent Leadership

by Nickolas in

i'm not sure where this topic belongs.

the adult & heated debate category, maybe, or jokes & humour.

guess we'll see.

Quendi

@nickolas:

From what I have seen in more than thirty-five years' association in the religion, many if not most elders are absolutely unqualified to hold their offices and are incompetent to boot. They don't know how to counsel. They can't teach. They are poor speakers. They aren't good administrators. Worst of all, they couldn't shepherd anyone, driving their sheep into the jaws of wolves rather than rescuing them. That's not to say I haven't known good men who were fine elders and shepherds, but such men were few and far between.

@sabastious:

Abraham Lincoln said it best many years ago. "If you want to see a man's true character, give him power." That is why I drew the comparison between the Flock book and Sauron's One Ring. As you noted, the One Ring controlled all the other Rings of Power and their Keepers. This was especially true of the Nine given to Mortal Men who, blinded by their greed, took them without question only to be enslaved. The elder arrangement does not work, period. It did in the first century for one reason only: holy spirit was the foundation of the arrangement. Holy spirit is not supporting it now, so there is no way these men can function as their first century counterparts did. And even in the first century, there were problems as the book of Revelation clearly shows. But I am convinced that the reason most men "reach out" is because they want to exercise control and power over their fellows. Serving the congregation is the last thing on their minds.

@wobble:

You had a very interesting, and I must say rare and outstanding, experience. I'm surprised that congregation was able to continue as it did without some heavy-handed intervention on the part of the UK branch. Maybe the fact that it was located in an out-of-the-way rural area had something to do with its relative peace and freedom. I don't think that would have been the case had this congregation been in London, Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, or some other large city. It might well be that the branch just didn't want to be bothered and so took no action.

@leavingwt:

You're right to say that some elders are tyrants. The problem is that these bastards aren't deleted, but are allowed to stay in office. Just another proof that holy spirit has nothing to do with their, or anyone else's, appointment in the first place.

@LongHairGal:

In addition to the bottom line, I would add there is one other concern the organization has which is paramount: CONTROL. The WTS is not interested in directing people to God under the loving leadership and teachings of Jesus Christ. It has put itself, through its fiction of being the "faithful and discreet slave" in the place that only Jesus Christ should occupy. It wants that position because, as Christ himself would say, they are "false prophets that come to you in sheep's covering but inside they are ravenous wolves."

Quendi

21

Poisonous Congregations and Incompetent Leadership

by Nickolas in

i'm not sure where this topic belongs.

the adult & heated debate category, maybe, or jokes & humour.

guess we'll see.

Quendi

Thanks, sabastious, for the link to the Flock book. I know I won't read it all, but just the opening paragraphs sent chills down my spine. The words that came to my mind when I read those paragraphs were these:

One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them.

One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them

In the land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

In addition I would answer palmtree67 and say no matter how good the congregation may be, in the end it will be corrupted by the evil that is present in this guidebook. A congregation's body of elders, no matter how well-intentioned, will have to knuckle under to the directives in the book or face deletion, either separately or collectively. There is no way the WTS will allow an "independent thinking" body of elders to hold sway over a congregation for an extended period of time. If nothing else, that is why circuit overseers make their rounds. Part of their job is to check up on elders' compliance with WTS rules.

Quendi