Quendi

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Posts by Quendi

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  7

  The Power of This Cult

  by Quendi in

  1. jw
  2. friends

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  Quendi

  I want to thank everyone for their responses. This is a peculiar problem and I didn’t think it would draw much interest so I am gratified by the counsel I have received.

  @ irondork: It never occurred to me that “Mr. California,” as you so engagingly call him, might be touched by some envy or jealousy. I certainly can’t dismiss that notion because it may very well be true. I know that when others are enjoying a freedom we lack, there can be a jealous reaction. Maybe my friend is suffering the same thing and needs time to work through his feelings. We’ve been friends for nearly 25 years and I never had the slightest romantic feelings for him. But that doesn’t mean he did not have them. Thanks for raising this point.

  While watching other people get into relationships that led to marriage didn’t bother me in my Witness years, going to Witness weddings definitely did. As a gay man, even though I was in denial for many of those years, I felt distinctly uncomfortable. There was an unrelieved air of matchmaking that was a constant feature at their weddings. In the end, I simply refused to attend any more of them.

  @ BOC: I think you have touched directly on something my friend is struggling with: the Witness perspective. It was one we talked about often and how our struggle made us “war veterans.” We were never entirely at peace with ourselves or our God. If “Mr. California” is still wrestling with these things, he may very well view now as a casualty of war who is no longer available to help him. That makes me even sadder.

  @ Finkelstein: From time to time, “Mr. California” and I would talk about gay Witnesses we knew who had decided enough was enough and left the organization to pursue their own hopes and dreams with another man. We used to say they would undoubtedly come to a bad end for having “left Jehovah.” But when an elder we both knew also took this route, it certainly made me think that maybe, just maybe, he had made the right choice. I can only hope that “Mr. California” is beginning to think the same thing. He is now lonelier than ever with my departure. Maybe he will decide to renew ties with me if only to talk things over.

  @ 00DAD: As always, my friend, I appreciate getting your support. I certainly want to exercise patience with “Mr. California.” As you say, we have been friends for a long, long time and this change in my life has definitely hit him like a ton of bricks. We both hid this aspect of ourselves from most everyone we knew. I am still “coming out” to various friends and family and it is a slow, cautious process. The pressure you feel when you can’t be yourself with everyone is enormous. So I hope that he will eventually find the strength and courage to break free and live his life as he should. If and when he does, he’ll find me standing right beside him.

  Quendi
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  72

  What if you simply IGNORED being disfellowshipped and continued as before?

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i know this is an odd idea.

  maybe it is even silly.. but, i do daydream..... .

  what if you were informed that you are disfellowshipped and you flashed a huge smile and said, "nah.".

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  Quendi

  I am enjoying this exchange, Terry, so don’t think I mean to antagonize anyone. When I use the word argue, I don’t mean that in an adversarial sense but in the sense one would put forth a position or proposition, nothing more.

  Taking the word in that sense, you are arguing from a moral perspective based on the notion that this is a religion which claims its methods rest on moral grounds. If that were the case, then I’d support you, but only to a certain extent. Your mentioning MLK and the civil rights movement has no relevance to this discussion. King and his followers used the Constitution as the support for his movement. In other words, there was a written code that had already established certain rights and precedents to leverage against the Jim Crow laws he sought to overturn. Furthermore, you are using the practice of civil law and applying it to a religious venue. That makes the example entirely invalid. Civil rights have no more bearing on Witness proceedings than Islamic sharia law would. Barack Obama’s election is also completely and entirely immaterial to your argument.

  So it is with Jehovah’s Witnesses and their disfellowshipping procedures. True, anyone can appeal a decision to be disfellowshipped and, like you, I know of those who have successfully done so. But those appeals would have no basis in any secular court—nor should they. And we both know that more often than not, these appeals are summarily denied, often without any explanation or exposition.

  The WTS uses its own translation of the Bible and its own warped perception of what it teaches to justify its judicial proceedings. The Society has that right, a right which cannot be abridged or abrogated. As for your contention that a person knows or understands before entering a religion being irrelevant, I disagree with this. Here’s why.

  In this forum we have stated time and time again that it is important to do a thorough investigation before getting into anything serious. None of us did this when we were approached by the Witnesses; otherwise we would have never gotten baptized. We lacked all the facts to make an informed decision. That is also true of those of us who were “born in.” However, once we were in, it was incumbent upon us to get informed and remain so. Most of us failed to do that as well for various reasons. But once we became informed, we knew what the consequences would be. That being the case, it was up to us to prepare for the worst.

  You are right to say that few have the ability to withstand the withering and debilitating examination that goes with a judicial committee. That is most unfortunate, and you are right to accuse the WTS and its officers of doing great and lasting harm to many.

  However, approaching other Witnesses with the aim of forcing them to break disfellowshipping rules and protocol as you advocate will only end with the disruptor being banned from all congregation meetings. Also, nobody is saying that elders don’t routinely violate confidences in judicial proceedings. We all agree that these proceedings are flawed and indefensible. But your contention that these wrongs justify taking steps to disrupt or weaken the congregation’s structure is equally fallacious.

  I go back to what I stated in my last post. We are commanded to ‘seek peace and pursue it.’ Disrupting congregation gatherings by hostilely confronting elders, pressuring others to acknowledge our presence with in-your-face greetings, and infringing on their right to choose their association inside or outside the kingdom hall is not seeking or pursuing peace. It is unkind, unloving and unchristian. Asserting otherwise is sophistry, “a subtle, tricky, superficially plausible, but generally fallacious method of reasoning” as one dictionary puts it. Why do I say this?

  We say that we have no wish to imitate the WTS way of relating to other people. Yet this method does exactly that. We aren’t raising awareness of evil as the civil rights protestors did. Instead, we are inflicting a measure of the pain and emotional distress the organization has given us upon its followers. While it may give us some satisfaction to see others writhe in discomfort when we intrude upon them, we aren’t winning friends and influencing people. We’re doing the exact opposite. Is this what Christ would have done? Not even the most reprobate WTS officer deserves that.

  “Return evil for evil to no one,” the Bible says. That is why I say that if we’re going to associate with Witnesses, we should follow their rules. If we can’t then we need to completely withdraw from them. This organization is not going to reform itself. It won’t become “kinder and gentler.” It seeks only to manipulate and control everyone within its reach. If we are disfellowshipped, then we shouldn’t want to associate with it or its followers any more than we need. If we are seeking reinstatement and have exhausted our appeals, then follow its established protocols. The sooner we do so, the sooner we can recover our lost family and friends. Then we can do what others have done: fade quickly and quietly. I hope this clarifies my thinking on the matter. Terry, I look forward to your response, my friend.

  Quendi
• 
  7

  The Power of This Cult

  by Quendi in

  1. jw
  2. friends

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  Quendi

  I want to share this experience and gather others’ thoughts on it. We all know the stranglehold the WTS has on the mental and emotional state of its followers. But I sometimes believe we may not fully appreciate the strength of that hold until we encounter a cogent example. This is certainly true of me. Let me explain.

  As some of you may know, I was disfellowshipped for being a gay man. That was back in September 2005. Most of the Witnesses I knew shunned me, of course, but there were a few exceptions. One of these was another gay man who lives in Southern California. He is celibate and serves as a ministerial servant in one of the local congregations. We maintained our friendship via telephone, internet and snail mail all during the years I’ve been out, speaking to each other on a weekly basis. He has helped me out on many occasions, particularly during the years I have been unemployed.

  I had been living in Alabama caring for my aged mother and recharging my batteries during most of 2012. In January, I returned to Colorado and am now living in Denver. My Witness friend was very happy that I had returned and we talked about what this would mean for the both of us. Now, if we have had one sticking point during all the years I’ve been out it has been about when I would seek reinstatement again. I’ve tried telling my friend how little I desired this, but it never seemed to truly register with him—until now.

  Let me make one further point before continuing. Although celibate, my friend has many gay friends and continues to associate with them. As far as I know he hasn’t been physically involved with any of them and some are men he has known for nearly forty years, long before he became a Witness. He has kept his gay associations secret from the elders and others in his congregation but he has certainly relished these friendships and has no intentions of ending them.

  Well, last month, I decided to let my friend know about the latest development in my life. I told him that one of the reasons I could return to Colorado is the fact that I now have a partner. My partner is a good man and we are building a life together here. I went on to tell my friend that my partner was very eager to meet him and wanted to extend an invitation to him to visit us in Denver and stay for as long as he wanted.

  For my friend, it was quite a shock, I’m sure. He asked me the question I expected, “Does this mean you won’t be coming back to the ‘Truth’?” I answered yes and added that since there is no place for active LGBT people in the organization, I saw no point in doing so. I also said that I hoped he would regard me in the same light as he did his other gay friends. My friend gave a non-committal reply and we ended our talk. I’ve heard nothing from him since.

  I consulted with a fading Witness here who knows my story and who is also a member of this forum and asked her counsel. She told me that I should let some time go by to allow my friend to sort out his feelings. After all, she pointed out, this is a completely unexpected turn of events for him to digest. Then she said that after allowing some time to pass, I might want to reach out to him again.

  So I let a month go by and then sent my friend a card with a brief message simply saying that I knew my news had been unexpected, but that I missed him and our conversations. I added that I loved him dearly and hoped that he would write back or call me as occasion would allow. That was a week ago and I still have received no word.

  So what do the rest of you think? I don’t want to give up as it has been only a week since I wrote to him. There could be many reasons for a delay in his reply. Naturally, I hope I will get a positive response. On the other hand, considering the power this cult has over its members, I wouldn’t be surprised if my friend—a man I’ve known for nearly 25 years—should decide to end our friendship.

  I’ve already lost scores of friends to this cult and one more won’t make a major difference. But this man was a special case. I suppose what I can’t quite understand is how and why he would see me as any different from the other gay friends (who have never been Witnesses) he still has. What difference could there be between associating with them and with me and my partner? The congregation would probably strip him of his privileges if it knew about his current gay associates and I have told him that he could always visit us in Colorado with nobody in California being any wiser.

  Maybe this is another example of the power of this cult. If so, it is proof that it really does control a person’s mind as well as his heart. I’d appreciate any thoughts or counsel that you’d like to share on this.

  Quendi
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  72

  What if you simply IGNORED being disfellowshipped and continued as before?

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i know this is an odd idea.

  maybe it is even silly.. but, i do daydream..... .

  what if you were informed that you are disfellowshipped and you flashed a huge smile and said, "nah.".

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  Quendi

  Terry , I don’t believe you get the real thrust of my position. Disfellowshipping as practiced by the Witness cult is unchristian to begin with! So it doesn’t matter whether the reasons for it are “valid” or not. And seeing that we all knew the rules before we were baptized, we implicitly agreed to abide by them. That’s the bottom line. I don’t know about other countries, but in the United States, courts have consistently refused to intervene in any of these cases because of the First Amendment to the Constitution.

  And while there have been some modifications made to the wording of the announcement that a person has been reproved or disfellowshipped (due to lawsuits some brought against the Society), the basic result of the action remains unchallenged and unassailable from a legal standpoint. You are arguing from what you want the law to provide when there is absolutely no recourse.

  As for confession being protected by law, that is true if and only if only two parties are involved: the penitent and the spiritual advisor. That is also something the law has consistently upheld. By agreeing to meet with a judicial committee, both sides waive that protection. That is what is being found in the Conti case. The Society’s claim that her conversations with the judicial committee were privileged were found to be invalid because three people were involved as spiritual advisors rather than only the one the law will recognize.

  None of us likes the disfellowshipping practice the WTS uses—now. But all of us agreed with it while we were in good standing although some may have had reservations about it. If we have been disfellowshipped, there is no legal recourse to end the shunning. As painful as it is to lose family and friends, that is the new reality, a reality that we must embrace. The proper course of action is to move on and leave this cult and its blind followers behind.

  “Fighting fire with fire” won’t work. The cult has conditioned its officers and followers to reject our overtures of outreach and contact. Furthermore, if we are approaching people with the purpose of forcing that contact, we will get nowhere. Some will shrink away from morbid fear of being destroyed at Armageddon. Others will want to avoid Jehovah’s adverse judgment when they die and so be denied a resurrection. There will be those who whole-heartedly agree with the disfellowshipping principle and will support it regardless simply because it is the rule. There will be others who may not like what has happened, but support it nonetheless because they don’t want to be disfellowshipped themselves.

  Seeing that is the case, what recourse do we have? The answer is none. I had my judicial committee deny one of my requests for reinstatement because I wouldn’t sit where the attendants wanted me to. If a petty reason like that was used to keep me out, what would the committee have said to me if I were deliberately engaging various members in conversations or attempting to do so inside or outside the kingdom hall? We all know the answer to that question.

  As for the mental and emotional damage that comes with being disfellowshipped, in the vast majority of cases that is unavoidable. That doesn’t make it good or right, but that is a fact. Seeing themselves on the outside without friends or family, many do all in their power to get reinstated. I chose otherwise and have been all the better for it; but my circumstances are not everyone else’s. For those seeking reinstatement, the only recourse is to swallow their pride, grovel before the judicial committee, and then serve the term of their sentence (disfellowshipped state) which the committee will deem appropriate.

  Why do I say that pushing our presence on reluctant former associates isn’t Christian? The Bible says that we should provide fine things in the sight of all men and to seek peace and pursue it. Knowing the attitude about disfellowshipping and those under its curse in the cult, to violate the imposed rules is ignoring the Bible’s counsel as I see it. Besides, we have an excellent example in Jesus Christ himself.

  He did not have to go along with being haled before the wicked men who composed the Jewish Sanhedrin and submit to their farce of a trial. He did not have to endure the physical and emotional mistreatment they meted out to him. As he told his followers, twelve legions of angels stood at the ready to help him at any time and end the whole mess. But he chose to submit in part because he knew it would all work out for the best in the end.

  Granted, none of us are in the position Christ was or charged with the great responsibility he had. But he still set an example for us about how to deal with gross injustice. There are times when we should definitely fight for our rights and/or take measures to protect ourselves. Jesus did that as well, even on occasion hiding from those who wished him bodily harm or wanted to murder him outright. But there are also those times when we must recognize that after doing all we can, injustice may well prevail. Then we have to summon the courage to turn away and rebuild our lives. I really believe that doing so is the wiser and Christian course.

  Quendi
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  72

  What if you simply IGNORED being disfellowshipped and continued as before?

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i know this is an odd idea.

  maybe it is even silly.. but, i do daydream..... .

  what if you were informed that you are disfellowshipped and you flashed a huge smile and said, "nah.".

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  Quendi

  What did Jesus say about false teachers in his day? “Let them be. Blind guides are what they are. If, then, a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into the pit.” There is no useful purpose in what is proposed in this thread other than to gratify one’s ego. It certainly isn’t kind and it isn’t Christian, either.

  We talk about wanting to get away from this cult and have nothing more to do with it out of one corner of our mouth; and then out of the other corner discuss how we can make Witnesses acknowledge us through intimidation and humiliation. Seeing how that is the way a judicial committee operates, why would we want to emulate its methods and attitudes? Make no mistake, that is what this is really all about. I would think that having decided that we don’t want to be a Witness any longer, we’d have no reason to ever meet with them again.

  On the other hand, if we are seeking reinstatement—and there are legitimate reasons for doing so—then antagonizing the elders and upsetting individual Witnesses will make sure that any and all requests for reinstatement will be denied. Reinstatement is granted only to those who play by Witness rules. We all know what those rules are. We either abide by them or turn away from this organization.

  Quendi
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  23

  First [brief] conversation w/elder for years

  by AK - Jeff in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  in my area, i am labeled an 'active apostate', among other things i am sure.

  i live in a very small town, and bump into elders who hate me beyond words.

  if they could, i am sure they would gladly stone me before the entire villiage while chanting 'apostate, apostate.'.

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  Quendi

  It has been nearly eight years since I was disfellowshipped and that time has convinced me that few active Witnesses know the meaning of real friendship. Your experience with this elder parallels the ones I’ve had with active Witnesses. The first question I’ve been asked is, “Are you coming back?” Never has my health, life activities, status of family members or even my residence been the question. They only want to know if I plan on returning to the cage the organization really is.

  All Witnesses can think about is the status individuals have in the organization. If you are out, when will you return? If you are in, what congregation do you attend? When did you last pioneer? What privileges have you recently enjoyed? What “theocratic” plans do you have for the future?

  This attitude is one of the reasons I do not go out of my way to speak to any Witnesses I chance to meet. I know some think it is right to force Witnesses to acknowledge your presence if you are disfellowshipped or have disassociated or have faded. I strongly disagree with this because it is clear that if you’re out, Witnesses want nothing to do with you. I see no reason to create some confrontation just to gratify my ego through making them feel uncomfortable. That is neither Christian nor loving. If they don’t want my association, I sure don’t want theirs to even the minimal degree. I’m better off without it.

  Quendi
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  72

  What if you simply IGNORED being disfellowshipped and continued as before?

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i know this is an odd idea.

  maybe it is even silly.. but, i do daydream..... .

  what if you were informed that you are disfellowshipped and you flashed a huge smile and said, "nah.".

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  Quendi

  When I was disfellowshipped, I was told that I could not be barred from attending any meeting, particularly the Public Talk and Watchtower Study since they are open to any and all. Neither could I be directed to a particular seat since they also were open to anyone who chose to attend a meeting. Despite this, I got into a serious argument with my judicial committee about sitting where I pleased and not where the attendants would direct me. When I asked them to show me where this requirement was in the Bible, they shut up.

  Terry’s idea has some merit only if the disfellowshipped person does not wish to be reinstated. But if you want to be, then you’ll do what the elders say or your requests will be denied because you have shown a “bad attitude.” That means not approaching or greeting any Witness. Nowadays, some elders say you can’t even talk to other disfellowshipped persons as well because you’re still disobeying the rule about exchanging greetings with anyone who is disfellowshipped.

  Furthermore, if you have no intention of seeking reinstatement, then why attend any meetings or gatherings of Witnesses at all? Shunning can work both ways. I don’t go out of my way to greet any Witnesses I meet outside the kingdom hall. If they don’t want my company or are too cowardly or self-righteous to acknowledge my presence in public, then they are the losers and don’t deserve my friendship. There are other people who like me just the way I am, and they are the ones I want as my friends, not people who will let someone else choose their friends for them.

  Quendi
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  76

  Are homosexuals born that way? The March 15 Watchtower seems to say so.

  by matt2414 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  15 one brother who was raised in a christian household wrote that for as long as he could remember, he struggled with homosexual tendencies.

  he said: i always felt awkward.

  it seemed that i didnt fit in anywhere.

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  Quendi

  You’ve summed up the WTS position quite succinctly, Finkelstein. That is what I heard, read, and was told during all my years in the cult. LGBT people must remain celibate or get married to someone of the opposite sex since this is the only arrangement Jehovah will accept. If the choice is celibacy, then there is always the hope that the new order will make a person straight and put an end to his unhappiness.

  In the meantime, you have to listen to your nature being condemned and denounced. Don’t even bother seeking help or understanding from the elders. For every elder who will listen to you with empathy (and there are a few who will), there are a hundred who will not. As I’ve said before, this cult is no place for any LGBT person. To remain in it is to be miserable.

  Quendi
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  43

  Recorded Judicial Meeting by 19 year old

  by BlindersOff1 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  .

  he runs circles around the dogmatic elders.

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lko0vmqfyau.

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  Quendi

  As more time goes by, the Internet will play a larger role in bringing down this cult. It is no longer a matter of having the Society’s older publications being made available to anyone and thus exposing its many past errors. Now the discussions taking place during their star chamber proceedings are being put online as well. This has to be the Society’s worst nightmare.

  Clearly, the elders serving on this judicial committee have lost all power of objective thought. They can’t think for themselves but only what the organization tells them to believe. This experience was so much like my own. When I challenged the elders on my committee to support their assertions from the Bible, they quickly got angry. This showed me that the organization’s assertions about being divinely sanctioned and supported were completely false.

  Quendi
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  61

  Do you think those at the top realise that it's their fault - suicide as a result of being disfellowshipped?

  by jambon1 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i have been stunned to hear of two suicides in our area recently.. this adds to the other 3 that i have known of from the past.. the two recent suicides resulted from 1-the person being gay & hearing a horrific talk at the kingdom hall & 2-the person with problems who was disfelloshipped & then took his life the next week.. it astonished me that jw's in general don't rebel against this sort of thing.

  it's an appalling lack of support which leads people to feel distressed, abandoned & unloved.

  how the witnesses in the locality can just sail on without giving the cruelty of these measures serious though is beyond me.

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  Quendi

  Our friend sabastious raises an important point that must not be overlooked and gives great strength to his position. The WTS does harm its own flock and creates Stockholm Syndrome in its members. I do not believe this is simply due to being a cult and the natural fallout this would create. As I have pointed out before, and I think this is something our friend steve2 needs to examine more closely, the Society keeps its fingers on the pulse of its corps of followers.

  It does this through its field officers who are in constant touch with headquarters. Then, through its publications, especially The Watchtower and Our Kingdom Ministry, it sends back instructions on how the rank-and-file should act, react, think and feel about anything its ruling clique wants to address. Elders, circuit overseers, district overseers, zone overseers, et al also tell headquarters what is going on among their charges and how they react to directives. Look at how the WTS is fighting hard against the backlash it is experiencing over association with the disfellowshipped. Study articles, meeting parts and assembly talks have been used to put forth, maintain, and reinforce its hard line.

  Similarly, there is no way the Society is ignorant about suicides or attempted suicides which have followed some judicial committee action. It knows there is some kind of cause-and-effect; otherwise the Kingdom Ministry Schools would not make this a topic for examination. Furthermore, the organization is acutely aware of discussions like this one taking place in various Internet forums. We know it is actively monitoring many of them. Seeing that this is the case, the organization must bear culpability for some of these deaths. There must be some balance of accountability between individual responsibility for one’s choices and the organization’s role in creating the emotional poison some ingest.

  Many Witnesses are suffering from Stockholm Syndrome with respect to their continued association with the cult. I certainly did. I supported its positions even when my own conscience had misgivings. I went along with the treatment I received because I was convinced it was all God’s will. I agreed that the goal of such evil and abuse was to rescue me from Satan’s world and put me back on the path to salvation. How wrong I was and how warped my thinking had become! I identified with my oppressor even as that oppressor made it increasingly clear that it did not have my best interests at heart. I am glad now I made good my escape.

  Quendi