Posts by Larsguy

20

The truth of the Resurrection

by RWC in

at this time of easter christians celebrate the foundation of their faith, the resurrection of jesus christ.

without the resurrection, the rest of the christian faith is in vain, with it, the whole plan of god is fulfilled and validated.

in other words, if the resurrection occurred it proves the existence of god and his plan for salvation.. with that in mind, i offer the proof that the resurrection is a historical fact that be relied upon:.

Larsguy

Well, not to be one to spoil an ongoing debate, but the JIOR, who witnessed the Messiah's second coming in 1992 are seeing new sets of miracles now with the working of holy spirit, so...we're sort of left out of this argument since we know for a fact the things in the NT are true, especially having been fulfilled in great detail during our day.

But have no fear: Everyone who died in the Flood of Noah's day was a BELIEVER before they perished, and believing has little to do with rebellion since 1/3rd of the angels who know all and see God's own face still rebelled, so....

For those waiting on something they can see with their own two eyes or some other "miracle" they will be completely satisfied at ARMAGEDDON. No problemo.....

L.G.

34

"This generation" started in 1948.

by refiners fire in

among all those "born again" christian fundies, the general concensus is that the end time generation commenced in 1948.. here is their reasoning espoused by two of their prophetic writers, norman robertson and hal lindsey.. christ gave his great "last days" discourse in matthew 24, stating that "this generation would by no means pass away" before all was fullfilled.. matthew 24v 32,33 states:.

..."now learn from the fig tree as an illustration of this point.

just as soon as you see its young branches grow tender and it puts forth leaves , you know that summer is near.likewise when you see all these things, know that he is near at the doors.

Larsguy

This is an interesting concept, but to be fair, it says when the leaves grow tender know that he is NEAR AT THE DOORS.

Since I also believe that the rebirth of Israel is represented by their nation being born in 1947-1948, it should be noted that this rebirth does not occur until AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION where the Jews would be trampled underfoot in a one-time event before the "end" comes and thus they are allowed to be reborn in Israel. That "great tribulation" of Judea was none other than the HOLOCAUST.

But considering that, you should note closely Daniel 12 which specifically dates the second coming 45 years after the "end" or after the end of the "gentile times" which ended in 1947 when the partition agreement was signed. With that in mind, a 45-year delay from 1948 until the second coming, that would conflict with a "generation" being merely 40 years. Besides that, the Bible says that generation would not expire until ALL those signs occurred. Thus the specific reference to the rebirth of Israel is simply that he is NEAR AT THE DOORS.

Considering that, one might consider an alterative view of the length of a "generation" being the normal lifespan of individual and Ps. 90:10 tells us that is 70 to 80 years. In as much as it would be at least 45 years from the end of the gentile times and/or after the great tribulation before the Messiah would arrive, and thus not before 45 years after either 1945 (end of HOLOCAUST/great tribulation) or 1947 (end of gentile rule in Judea), a more correct fulfillment of the "last generation" would be an 80-year period from the time with the FIRST SIGN began, that first sign being not the usual wars heard about but a massive world war where there would be "nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom". That world conflict, if we apply to WWI, then the first "signs" would have started in 1914 and that gives us up until 1994 for the Messiah to arrive.

Interestingly enough, 45 years beyond either 1945 or 1947-48 still ends prior to 1994 (1990-1993), though just barely.

So there is room for critical interpretation of the "last generation" statement. However, my position would be not to look at this in the vaccuum of this prophecy. Other chronology prophecies in the Bible specify, for instance, the specific year for the second coming if that's the point to be made. Jesus' words about the last generation is just a coordinated reference check-point for limiting the length of the signs beginning with a world war to 1 generation. Thus it's the harmonizing of that statement with other chronology that give us the specific year of the second coming that is the true interest.

THUS: the year of the second coming can be determined by the the 70-weeks prophecy which requires the Messiah to eat the last supper when he first arrives, thus ending "gift and sacrifice" a second time. We know the Messiah arrived the first time during the 70th week and ended gift and sacrifice by his death which ended the symbolic animal sacrifices. That 70th week began in 455BCE and ended in 36CE with the mid-week Passover occurring in 33CE. It is thus a simple matter to count down 70-week periods of 490 years each to our day to determine when the 70th week occurs during our day. Once that is done we can then calculate the mid-week passover which will give us with a year of the time when the Messiah would arrive.

Thus 490 x 4 is 1960 years. Add 1960 to 36CE and you get 1996 as the end of the 70th week. Note that 1996 is 2 years beyond the last generation cutoff of 1994. BUT...MID-WEEK passover occurs in 1993, one year before the 1994 cutoff. So when Jesus said that "generation would not pass away" he was cutting it pretty close, just one year to spare! So that's confirmed, the "last generation" ending in 1994 works with the Biblically designated year for the second coming which is by Passover of 1993 but not before Passover of 1992.

Still, thanks for this post since the establishment of the Jews back to Palestine is a critical event used to determine when the Messiah would arrive. By the way, if you consider Daniel 12 which says: "Happy is he who keeps alert and arrives at the 1335 days" indicating the Messiah would arrive 45 years after the symbolic 1290 days end, which we can end critically when the Jews return to Palestine in 1948, then 45 plus spring of 1948 gives you spring of 1993, the same general time as Passover 1993 when the Messiah would arrive.

So while the generation limitation does give us a general idea as to when the Messiah would arrive, Daniel is more specific to the year of the second coming being 45 years after the Jews return to Jerusalem, which dates the second coming in 1992-1993 based upon 1947-1948...but, BEFORE 1994, which is 80 years after a world war (1914).

Thanks, again for your post.

L.G.

10

Jesus vs. Adam-Your Thoughts Are Needed

by Mister Biggs in

this goes out to anyone (jw's and x-jw's).. i was just wondering last night about how jw's teach that jesus was the last adam; how he balanced the scales because he was perfect; how only the sacrifice of a perfect human body can redeem mankind from its sinful state.

(of course, other religion's may teach these things, too.

however, i've only lived my life as a jw so i can't speak on behalf of other faith's).. anyway, jesus came to earth and passed the tests that satan threw at him.

Larsguy

These are interesting issues presented, but I think we have to look at the true BROADER picture and that is the situation with the angels. Frankly, these were perfect creatures, could actually see GOD directly up in heaven and still one third (ONE THIRD!!) of them joined Satan in the rebellion.

So I really don't think situational circumstances play too much into the equasion as much as some with free moral choice simply decide they don't like God or his programs and choose not to be a part of it, apparently willing to die for their cause. Which is fine.

But, those who do choose this God and CHOOSE to be good, are far more happier than if they were not given that choice. So really, it all works out for the best. This temporary time of wickedness and rebellion seems to have been the price for the eventual true happiness of those who CHOOSE to serve this particular God and will be granted eternal life.

What I think God wanted was a level of "happiness" greater than that of an animal. I mean, puppies and dogs are happy and delirious when their owners come home and love to play all day. But is that TRUE HAPPINESS, compared to a higher intellectual happiness based upon choices? Apparently not. Since the higher level of happiness can only be had through free moral agencies, it should seem clear part of that equasion would be some casualties, about 1/3 in fact. But apparently God thought it was worth it for the 2/3rds that would be sublime at the higher state of happiness, something I think necessary if you're going to live FOREVER!

L.G.

64

"Dubs For Dummies"

by Farkel in

dear brothers and sisters in the worldwide brotherhood of jehovahs witnessestm,.

there has been much public interest in our beliefs lately, so we have prepared a very brief summary of our core beliefs in a new pamphlet which you may offer to interested persons.

hopefully, this pamphlet will generate enough interest with honest-hearted people and enable you to start many new bible studies.

Larsguy

Hi Farkel guy! You are so literary of late! Hope you are doing well!

Cheerio,
L.G.

3

My Thoughts: Satan's Defection and Mankin...

by Ephanyminitas in

[note: this is an excerpt from a paper that i wrote a few months back.

i thought that i'd share it here.

realize that i'm a -- er, a non-thiest/humanist, so references to god are tongue-in-cheek.

Larsguy

This is a very interesting and astute reading which I cannot contradict, of course, but will only offer my own generalized take on this with respect to "happiness".

True happiness probably can't be completely fulfilled without CHOICE. It's the difference between being in love with the person you marry or marrying out of arrangement, even if it turns out the person chosen for you was who you were interested in anyway. In literature thsi concept is dealt with, the idea of having BOTH...where the Prince who has everything, leaves his throne, pretends he's a pauper and commoner seeking TRUE LOVE and does find it in some beautiful waif who then turns out to be some royal princess who is also pretending and in they fall in love first. Then by circumstance end up fulfilling duty to their country only to find out their heart's dream is one and the same. Of course, within the PREVIOUS CHOICE is sublime happiness because that individual DISCOVERED their own heart.

So applying that to this situation, it would seem that God automatically knew the ODDS with relation to true happiness, that is, that some percentage of free moral agents would not find it in their hearts to love this particular God willingingly and would be unhappy, but it would be worth it for those who would discover by their own choice to love this God and thus be supremely happy.

So TRUE HAPPINESS does come at a price when dealing with free moral agents but apparently the permission of temporary rebellion and wickedness was seen as worth it for the end result.

On the other hand, this opinion regarding what "perfection" is implies that God should have created the angels and mankind as "robots", which really are what animals are. Creatures living by instinct. God wanted something more for the angels and mankind though and that required them being free moral agents. He knew that sharing the universe with other creatures would be more enjoyable for them if they had a chance to CHOOSE voluntarily to worship and love this God rather than being forced to.

So what has happened is that God has given everyone a bit of life to CHOOSE to live the way they want, to be good or bad and to enjoy that. For those who choose to be good he is offering an extended life. For those who choose bad, they will have the temporary life of an animal, which is born, mates and dies, but still, that's more than not existing at all. God seemed in no big hurry to kill of Adam (or Satan for that matter) immediately.

So it would seem, this was just part of the process for attaining TRUE HAPPINESS where after TRIAL and a chance to choose, those who will be granted eternal life are those who PREFER by CHOICE to be good and by choice want to be with this PARTICULAR GOD. Those individuals who would not otherwise be happy, like Satan, are mercifully put out of their misery by being allowed to experience the "lake of fire".

So really, all is quite well.

L.G.

18

The philosophy class

by Scorpion in

a college student was in a philosophy class which had a discussion about god's existence.

"has anyone in this class seen god?

"has anyone is this class heard our professor's brain?

Larsguy

Nice little story, but actually, post 1992, the JIOR(anointed ones) have been seeing more miracles and, of course, some of us, like myself have had personal interviews with the Heavenly Father. This doesn't help the masses but it sort of leaves us out of the position of denying God.

One recent physical miracle occurred with imagery in clouds that was photographed, some of which match a consistent image shown to the JIOR anointed that has a representation in one of the WTS publications on page 198 of the "Revelation Book".

So now, in fact, some of us are seeing a bit more direct evidence of God and certainly holy spirit and it does affect the "blind faith" aspect of believing that most persons know.

Again, as I said, this doesn't help those who have not had these extracorporal experiences, but it leaves those of us who have out of the debate. Which is okay, we were all believers anyway.

L.G.

5

Two Flood Stories Conflict

by JosephAlward in

17 i am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it.

19 you are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you.

20 two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive.

Larsguy

Thanks Joseph for your post, you notice more little details I always miss and I always learn from your post.

Apparently in this case we've learned there must have been TWO GLOBAL FLOODS, apparently one right after the other one. The first flood might not have killed everything and so the second flood was more damaging and that's the one that must have had the water going over the highest mountains.

Thanks for this information, I learn more Biblical facts from you, it's amazing. I don't know why you are not a believer, you know more about the Bible than most Biblicalists!!!

L.G.

5

IsThe "Slave Class" Biblical?

by stevieb1 in

i'm currently involved in an in-depth study of the wt society's doctrine of the "faithful and discreet slave" of matthew 24:45-47 and hope to present my research to an inquiring jw elder.

i am trying to counter some of the claims made in the following reference:- insight on the scriptures vol 1, pp.

805-806. here is a quote from p.806 which adequately describes the society's understanding of the "slave class" .

Larsguy

The idea of the slave class has to be put into the context of what Jesus would be doing during the last generation. Thus I reference you to the fact that two scriptures show Jesus investing in three slaves in particular and at another time 10 different "slaves". When he "goes away to secure kingly power" (Luke) he returns to inspect the work of these slaves and each does well EXCEPT ONE, a sluggish slave who buries the Lord's money so that it does not even collect interest in a bank. He is condemned then as the "evil slave."

This "evil slave" is the focus of many other parables but is the general reference here in Matthew as well where this slave could have turned out to be faithful and discrete, or could end up being an evil slave and have what is charged to him given to others.

Now for AChristian's reference, please note this determination of when that PARTICULAR slave is decided to be faithful or evil doesn't happen until Christ's second coming, that's the seeing for the FDS vs evil slave.

But we do know from the other scriptures that this PARTICULAR slave, does, indeed become the evil slave and not the FDS. But, in order to be a slave that is kicked OUT, he must be first inside God's arrnagement in the beginning.

So, yes, there IS a specific slave class that would operate during the "last generation" charged with feeding some of God's anointed ones in the temple organization. That "slave class" indeed would be the leadership of the witness organization. However, Christ did not appear in 1914 but in 1992 per critical Biblical chronology. It is at that point that the returned Messiah has to determine if this "slave class" was faithful and should be rewarded or was unfaithful. Of course, we know the WTS leaders are unfaithful and comprise the "evil slave" so they are not the FDS. But they ARE the slave referenced here since they are in charge of God's organization.

Please note a critical reference to their apostasy shows them as the Lamb-Dragon-Beast in Revelation, the companion to the 666-Beast which represents all of Christendom and their fantasy TRINITY-666-DOCTRINE. But note that Christendom comes out of the SEA whereas the Lamb-Dragon beast comes out of the EARTH! The earth represents God's organization and the Lamb resembles Christ's anointed followers but speaks like a dragon and thus becomes apostate. This proves that the apostate evil slave must originate within god's chosen temple organization, which indeed, is the organization of the witnesses.

So in summary:

YES, there is a specific "slave class" fulfilled by the leaders of the WTS. And yes the reference in Matthew is to them POTENTIALLY being the "faithful and discrete slave" class OR being the evil slave class when Christ comes to inspect near the end of the last generation which ends in 1994. Unfortunately, they end up not being the FDS but the evil slave class.

But all of this must be kept in mind with the fact that there are OTHER SLAVES who were sent out who were successful and there are "other sheep not of this fold", this fold being called a "little flock".

With that in mind, we again can reference where the coin originally invested to the evil slave that he buried is given to the first slave who had a 10-fold increase!!! So the one with the most success will get what the evil slave mismanaged.

What does that mean?

It means that at some point, the largest body of secret "witnesses" will absorb the runoff of the true wheat within the witness organization. What he has will go to others, that which is not rejected, that is. This is the organization where the "sheep must be separated from the goats" and then Christ will lead his sheep out.

So that's what's really going on with the FDS issue. No, the GB is not the FDS prophesied, but they ARE the "evil slave", Lamb-Dragon Beast prophesied since they are in charge of the temple organization, which is that of Jehovah's witnesses.

L.G.

34

The Bible is a Deck of Cards

by IslandWoman in

there are a variety of playing cards and a variety of games to play with them.. the bible's canon was selected with as much care and selfish intent as the makers of playing cards have when choosing their particular design or theme.. the "hebrew" canon was decided by a nation comdemned by jesus.

they picked the design.. the "christian greek" canon was decided by men who had left the teachings of the christ.

they also picked the design.. the whole thing is a sad joke.

Larsguy

Dear peacefulpete,

I'm fascinated by the pagan versus the Judeo-Christian doctrines since that is where a lot of my research began.

But here's ANOTHER ONE to add to your similaries. The ELEUSINIAN mysteries are about Persephone and her mother who fretted over her dying and wasn't content until she got her back. In the NT that fits nearly precisely the woman with the Drachma coin who loses it and then frets and frets until she finds it. Generally, the woman is considered to represent God who suffers over "lost sheep" in general. But in reality, the lost drachma coin represents the MESSIAH at the second coming since he is the "prodigal son" who was lost for a while then returned. So the stories are parallel and suggests that Satan directly or the doctrine in general about the nature of the second coming as the "lost sheep" prodigal son was known in advance.

The parallel seems just too coincidental to me. Haven't quite made up my mind whether Satan is mocking God or God is mocking Satan, but likely it's a little of both I'm afraid. God tricked Satan in the Garden of Eden, that test was really for him and not necessarily Adam and Eve and all their children. As it is, God saves the children who would have basically been saved but we gain a Satan-free world via the experience. Thus Satan would be very, very resentful of God for having tricked him with the "pentaly of sin is death" law since the resurrection law nullifies it. After all, who cares if you die now for a short while if you come back to live forever? So God just had ALL his children die and he brings back only the good ones and leaves the wicked ones dead. Literally burning children up by having them pass through the fire was Satan's way of mocking God's arrangement for the Ransom sacrifice.

So I definitely agree there are direct similarities, but who came up with what first I'm afraid will remain a matter of debate with me.

But fascinating topic, for sure! How the pagans knew the second coming Messiah would be a "lost sheep" in sheol for a while like Persephone in the "mysteries" has me wondering. Pagan doctrine does parallel Christian doctrine in many ways, amazingly!!!

Who influenced whom, is the real question. For a later debate I suppose.

Take care and have a nice day!

L.G.

34

The Bible is a Deck of Cards

by IslandWoman in

there are a variety of playing cards and a variety of games to play with them.. the bible's canon was selected with as much care and selfish intent as the makers of playing cards have when choosing their particular design or theme.. the "hebrew" canon was decided by a nation comdemned by jesus.

they picked the design.. the "christian greek" canon was decided by men who had left the teachings of the christ.

they also picked the design.. the whole thing is a sad joke.

Larsguy

Knowing how religions form and evolve, reasonable people would suspect early christian writers utilized literary license to promote their savior figure.As I've said in other threads the coincidences are numerous and specific.This evidence requires honest consideration.The proof you would have to have that these events occurred in the life of Jesus would have be very weighty.More than the need to believe.

This is an interesting topic and an interesting and true GENERAL theory, but on close examination of religious doctrine, you must also consider the COMMON SOURCE theory which would show varying but similar doctrines coming from a common source.

That would reflect upon the fact that a lot of common knowledge was present at the time immediately after the flood and those general facts became distorted into the various pagan religions. Case in point is the ancient mother goddess "Ishtar" who was used to depict the zodiac constellation "Virgo" (virgin). She is seen with a branch in her hand, that branch representing her "seed". Thus she represents the "woman and her seed" who would oppose the Messiah as mentioned in Genesis 3:15. So you have a Jewish version paralleling a pagan version but one might suppose that the concept originated first with the pagans, when it did not, it had a common source.

The same thing with other pagan doctrines regarding the Messiah. The Bible shows that Jesus is represented in the heavenly bodies as the "sun" since he's the bright morning star. Pagan custom shows the sun-god as Mithras and represents his birthdate at the winter solstice at the birth of the sun. However, the things in the heavens were represented by earthly things long before this, so the fact that the Jews and Christians would acknowledge their Messiah as the sun comes from the original reference of that fact and the pagan version simply reflects that.

Even the idea of the sacrifice of children which the pagans did was a Satanic mockery of what God had done in order to save mankind. That is, basically, in order to kill Satan and fulfill the law that says sin must be paid by death, the only way to nullify this for Adams children was to create the RANSON SACRIFICE via the RESURRECTION. That is, a new rule came into existence that said if you died a good person then you could come back to life again. But basically that would mean that God would require ALL his children to die or be tested, as if passing them through the fire. This basic concept became the corrupted pagan practice of having children pass through the fire to Molech as God was having his own children (all his servants) pass through the fire in another sense.

So on academic analysis, what we learn is a common knowledge about the conflict between Satan and the Devil and the sacrifice of the Messiah, the king, who would then save all mankind.

Now here's the issue. Basicaly, the concept of the dying-king-god ever year that brings back spring, is the same concept as Mithras killing the bull who then brings life and prosperity, and could parallel the fact that God's sacrificing of his son, Jesus Christ results in the life of dying mankind.

Now did the Christians adapt a PAGAN doctrine? or did the pagans adapt and original common belief of circumstances from the time of Noah?

So whether or not a specific doctrine in one culture resembles that in another could have more than one explanation. But particularly presuming that any Judeo-Christian concepts come out of paganism becomes somewhat presumptuous must be recognized since the Judeo doctrines go all the way back to Adam and stem therefore from Noah. In other words, the Christians and Jews did not need to borrow from the pagans when they had their own version of the original doctrine.

And what is really fun, when you really get into the Bible is recognizing that ISHTAR, the woman with teh seed, is a direct representation of Satan and his seed that would oppose Christ and his seed. So ISHTAR and Artemis and the mysteries are not simply pagan but specifically SATANIC. Thus Satan inspired these false gods based upon himself and his own nature, i.e. being beautiful, sophisticated, etc.

So two sides to every coin, I suppose, but in the case of the Jews and Christians more than likely they had the original take on some of the pagan concepts, including Jesus being the sun and being sacrificed to save the world. That's the Grail Myth from the mysteries you know: "The king is the land, the land is the king" the land dies when the king dies and when he's reborn the land flourishes again, the same old "dying king" myth, but that reflects the original concept of Jesus' death allowing for the rebirth of mankind.

L.G.