Hello Koine. Is it your opinion then that Christ never bestowed authority to the Apostles?
Isidore
JoinedPosts by Isidore
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This is a must read about authority in the " church " !!
by Koine intrue leadership and authority ( article from : truediscernment blogspot com/).
christians these days seem to have a problem with the issue of authority.. .
various teachers and pastors claim authority over their listeners or congregations.
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What are the marks of True Christianity?
by TimothyT ini was browsing through the new public edition watchtower article for march 2012. generaly, id say i agree.
of course there are more than 5 ways of identifiying who christians are today, but the following are reasonable enough benchmarks:.
remain in my worldno part of the worldhave love among yourselvesi have made your name knownthis good news of the kingdom will be preachedhowever, what gets me is the constant demonstrating of the inadequacies of other religions, purely to bull up the jehovahs witnesses.
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Isidore
The true marks for nearly 2000 years:
One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic.
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Am only now discovering/reading the Apocrypha
by Muddy Waters ini was never a born-in jw, got baptized when i was 20 after being raised and belonging to a denomination of a protestant church.
so i never even knew that there was a "catholic" bible or extra bible books (the authenticity of their belonging in the canon or not is a debatable issue, and one i certainly have no answers about it!).
i knew through my study with jws that there were some "extra" books written, but since i believed everything the wt said hook, line, and sinker, i just went along with their explanation that they were not part of the bible canon.
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Isidore
"Apocrypha" is really not the proper term for these additional books. They actually are called "Deuterocanonical". The term "Apocrypha" was used by Martin Luther in a derogatory manner because the books conflicted with his doctrine of man being saved by faith alone, apart from works. Since he could not remove the books altogether, as they has always been accepted as canon, he placed the books in the back of his revised order of the canon.
The Guttenberg and the 1611 first editions of the King James, for example, had these additional 7 books in them. It wasn't until "Scottish Bible Societies" in the 18th century, when printing their own massed produced bibles (sould familiar?) that these books began to be removed from between the covers altogether. Funny enough, one of their listed reasons for doing so was because they felt that if people should read these books, they might become Catholic.
There are several references to these 7 books in the New Testament. In addition, a commonly accepted canard in Proetstant circles is the St. Jerome attempted to remove them when producing the Latin Vulgate because he disgareed with the teachings implied in them. Martin Luther, and other Protestant denominations have pointed to this as evidence that St. Jerome himself did not agree with these being canonical. This is simply not true. St. Jerome was perhaps the greatest Hebrew, Greek and Latin linguist of the ancient world, and he felt that since he did not have extant copies of these books in Hebrew, they should not not be part of the Hebrew canon. He was overruled by Pope Damasus because these books have always been accepted as canon by Christians, so St Jerome relented and included them. It wasn't until years later, with the finding of the Dead Sea Scrolls, that we had proof that these books were indeed found to be written in Hebrew as well as Greek, showing that although St Jerome did not have access to copies at that time in Hebrew, they did in fact exist.
All this is barely scratching the surface and there is much, much more to this story than these quick highlights.
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JWs are obsessed with persecution
by life is to short inover the weekend i was around a group of jw's.
i have not been in such a setting for along time so it was sort of surreal.. so this one older jw woman started to talk about her neighbors and their little girls and how much she liked them.
she said they were a nice family, etc, that they watch each other homes when they go away on vacation, etc.
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Isidore
JW's equate persecution with anything that thwarts their door to door ministry. Real persecution is when people are gathered at church for Mass in Iraq or Eqypt and being blown up by a terrorist Islamic Jihadist for being Christian.
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Can you give specific examples of the WTBTS taking quotes out of context?
by Chemical Emotions innot just from the bible, but from secular writers and others.
or other similar mistakes/lies regarding quotes and stories and things like that.. .
i have noticed a few, but i can't remember most of them... oops.
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Isidore
http://www.catholic-forum.com/members/popestleo/antenicene.html
This is article is a goldmine of misquotes that the WTBS has made about the early church fathers that they love using in the Trinity brochure and the Insight on the Scriptures.
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The Trinity
by The Quiet One ini have a question, primarily for trinitarians, but anyone's more than welcome to comment.
what scriptural basis is there for believing in the trinity?
i can understand some having the view that jesus/jehovah both can be worshipped, and the view that jesus should be, but where in the bible is the holy spirit worshipped?
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Isidore
Mad Sweeney wrote:
"That's kind of an annoying phrase."
How should I phrase it then? The bible is an heirloom of the Catholic Church. She decided what was canon and was not. If the Holy Spirit guided her in deciding what was authentic writings and what was not, then it would logically follow she would be the correct interpreter of Sacred Scripture. The bible is not self interpreting, or else we wouldn't have 40,000 denominations all claiming to have truth, or individuals who claim that they are spiritual, just not religious, and pick and choose what they see in scripture that suits them and then discard the rest. The bible was compiled for liturgical purposes in the Mass, not be read in a vacuum outside the living faith community.
ProdigalSon, thank you for your input. I didn't have to be there. I just have to read from those that were, but I appreciate your attempt. Faith is a personal thing. For those that believe, no proof is necessasry. For those that don't, no proof is possible. I wish you peace in your journey.
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The Trinity
by The Quiet One ini have a question, primarily for trinitarians, but anyone's more than welcome to comment.
what scriptural basis is there for believing in the trinity?
i can understand some having the view that jesus/jehovah both can be worshipped, and the view that jesus should be, but where in the bible is the holy spirit worshipped?
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Isidore
Quiet One, how to properly read scripture is determined by how the early living faith community understood the teachings as handed down to them by the Apostles. It really doesn't matter how you or I understand what we think scripture means, it's the living faith community that produced it. And that was the Catholic Church. She determined what was the canon of the bible, so she is the one who knows the proper understanding of scripture. You may not like hearing that, but the early Christians all understood the divinity of Christ and the Holy Spirit. Since many of them were taught and ordained by the Apostles themselves, it's a much safer bet to listen to how they understood what the Gospel was than our own understanding.
Matthew 28
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
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The Trinity
by The Quiet One ini have a question, primarily for trinitarians, but anyone's more than welcome to comment.
what scriptural basis is there for believing in the trinity?
i can understand some having the view that jesus/jehovah both can be worshipped, and the view that jesus should be, but where in the bible is the holy spirit worshipped?
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Isidore
John 14:16-17 (Revised Standard Version)
16 And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you.
John 16:12-14
12 "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
Acts 13:1-2
1 Now in the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers, Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyre'ne, Man'a-en a member of the court of Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. 2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."
Acts 5:1-3
1 But a man named Anani'as with his wife Sapphi'ra sold a piece of property, 2 and with his wife's knowledge he kept back some of the proceeds, and brought only a part and laid it at the apostles' feet. 3 But Peter said, "Anani'as, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land?
These are just a few verses showing the personification of the Holy Spirit.
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Does anybody on here TRULY believe in the Resurrection...and how?
by itscrap&theyknowit! ini really want to see my dad again!!!!
i just wonder when this will occur.
thousands of years have gone by.
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Isidore
Thanks for the heads up, New Chapter. Oh well, I tried.
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Does anybody on here TRULY believe in the Resurrection...and how?
by itscrap&theyknowit! ini really want to see my dad again!!!!
i just wonder when this will occur.
thousands of years have gone by.
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Isidore
"Isidore: it is a Catholic mistake to make tradition/Fathers on par with Scripture. The Church Fathers were unduly influenced by pagan philosophy, contradicted each other, had a mix of good, bad, ugly views. Only Scripture is authoritative. They do quote Scripture frequently, so this is another way to confirm manuscript accuracy. Are you Catholic?"
I'll answer your last question first (and for the second time, because you seem to forget that you've asked this already), I am entering the Church next Easter.
Scripture attests to tradition and refutes your position:
1 Thessalonians 2:15 (RSV, emphasis mine)
15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.
The onus is on you, Godrulz, to show where in the bible does it attest to the bible itself as being the sole rule of faith. Sole reliance on the bible alone (Sola Scriptura) was an unknown doctrine in Christianity for 1500 years until the Protestant Revolution. What came first, Christ's Church in Matt. 16, or sacred scripture? And remember, you wouldn't have the bible to "use" for evangelizing others on this website if it wasn't for the Catholic Church telling you what the list of books that makes up the bible are.