"You people chopping scriptural logic are why I became a Buddhist. I prefer realizing, for myself and in this very life, the things that are promised, rather than hoping, praying, and chopping bible-logic like a sushi chef."
After examining Buddhism and it's relativism, it confirmed my belief in Christianity. There are absolute truths my friend. My brother was a devout Buddhist. He is now entering the Catholic Church next year. Peace be with you.
"Jn. 6 is a metaphor, not a wooden literalism. Salvation is based on faith in the person and work of Christ, not external rituals. It is one thing to quote a verse, but another to interpret it in context and in light of other verses."
My friend, even the Gnostics believed in the True Presence in the Eucharist. Not one of the early fathers believed as you do.
From Ignatius of Antioch:
"Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God...
"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes" (Epistle to the Smyrnaeans 6:2; 7:1 [A.D. 110]).
"I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible" (Epistle to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).
From Justin Martyr:
"We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined.
"For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus" (First Apology 66:1-20 [A.D. 148]).
From Irenaeus of Lyons:
"If the Lord were from other than the Father, how could he rightly take bread, which is of the same creation as our own, and confess it to be his body and affirm that the mixture in the cup is his blood?" (Against Heresies 4:33-32 [A.D. 148]).
"He has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own body, from which he gives increase unto our bodies.
"When, therefore, the mixed cup [wine and water] and the baked bread receives the Word of God and becomes the Eucharist, the body of Christ, and from these the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they say that the flesh is not capable of receiving the gift of God, which is eternal life--flesh which is nourished by the body and blood of the Lord, and is in fact a member of him?" (Against Heresies 5:2 [A.D. 148]).
From Cyril of Jerusalem:
"The bread and the wine of the Eucharist before the holy invocation of the adorable Trinity were simple bread and wine, but the invocation having been made, the bread becomes the body of Christ and the wine the blood of Christ" (Catechetical Discourses, Mystagogic 1, 19:7 [A.D. 350]).
"Do not, therefore, regard the bread and wine as simply that; for they are, according to the Master's declaration, the body and blood of Christ. Even though the senses suggest to you the other, let faith make you firm.
"Do not judge in this matter by taste, but be fully assured by the faith, not doubting that you have been deemed worthy of the body and blood of Christ...[Since you are] fully convinced that the apparent bread is not bread, even though it is sensible to the taste, but the body of Christ, and that the apparent wine is not wine, even though the taste would have it so,...partake of that bread as something spiritual, and put a cheerful face on your soul" (Catechetical Discourses; Mystagogic 4, 22:9 [A.D. 350]).
What does Christ's words "my flesh is food indeed, my blood is drink indeed" mean? Why do you think the 5000 he had just fed left Him when hearing this? If it was a metaphor, why didn't he say, "Wait! Come back! You missed understood me. I was speaking metaphorically." He turned to His Apostles and said, "Do you want to leave me as well?" No, it was always understood to be the true body and blood of Jesus Christ, even by Luther and Calvin. It wasn't until the last couple of centuries has the True Presence been denied. I'm sorry, but history is not on your side here.
"So, if I am a separated brethren without sacramental grace (grace comes from a relationship with Christ through the power of the Spirit, not through ritual or external symbols....many Catholics practice ritual, but remain unregenerate and without relationship with Christ), do I go to heaven, hell, or purgatory?"
You are correct, we do have a relationship with Christ thorugh the power of the Spirit, but it is perfected in the power of the sacraments dispensed by His Church.
John 3:5 (emphasis mine)
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
The notion of Baptism being merely symbolic was totally unkown to the early Christians. Baptism is regenerative to our souls.
As you can see from my last post, in John 6 Christ states we have no life in us if we do not eat of the bread (His flesh) and drink of the wine (His blood). These are just two examples in scripture that show how we receive God's Grace in these 2 sacraments.
The Church does not presume judgement on anyone. That is Christ's authority alone.
Godrulz, what do you think first century worship looked like? Do you think it was only a sermon and reading from Sacred Scripture?
Acts 2:42
42 And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.
Acts 20:7
7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the morrow; and he prolonged his speech until midnight.
Mark 14:22 (emphasis mine)
22 And as they were eating, he took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to them, and said, "Take; this is my body." 23 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, and they all drank of it. 24 And he said to them, "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.
1 Corinthians 10:16-17
16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread.
John 6:47-58 (emphasis mine)
47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh." 52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" 53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever."
Have you been to a Mass? I think you'll find that it is absolutely soaked in scripture.
"The proof texts for infant baptism have nothing to do with that. Far more explicit texts support believer's baptism by immersion for disciples. Unique RC doctrine relies on tradition/later papal decree and a few prooftexts out of context if lucky. We agree to disagree, but I appreciate your thoughtful answers.
So, can I go to heaven and be right with God despite rejecting Catholic Church/distinctives? I believe you can despite the errors of Catholicism (individual issue vs automatic)."
The Catholic Church's doctrines was what was believed by the early Christians from the beginning and developed over time. If you read the writings of the Early Church Fathers, this would bear this out.
Again, where in the bible does it say that all doctrine must be in the bible? Book, chapter and verse please. Christ started a Church, and did not write a book. He relied upon oral tradition to teach others, and the Apostles in turn taught by word of mouth as well, in addtion to their writings. That's how Christianity spread so quickly. As far as papal decree's....
Matthew 16:19
"whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
John 16:12-13 (emphasis mine)
12 "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
So who has the final authority to correctly interpret scripture?
In regards to salvation for non Catholic's, I'll cite these paragraphs from the Catechism:
845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."
The Church considers those that have broken away from Her to be seperated brethren and do not have full access to God's grace through the sacraments.
Peace be with you
"The Catholic church is not the problem if it means the universal church (creed). It is a problem if it means the Roman Catholic Church."
This is a distinction without a difference. It is only a problem if one chooses to believe it is not one in the same.
"Some unbiblical concerns would include purgatory"
This, like the Trinity, can be deduced although it is not mentioned by name. If we are not in a state of grace, nothing unclean will enter heaven (Revelation 21:27).
1 John 5:16-17 (Revised Standard Version)
16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.
When we die in sin, but the sin is not deadly, where do we go? What happens to us? We know we do not gain immediate entry into heaven, since nothing unclean can enter there (see Rev. 21:27). And it certainly can't be hell, since John tells us the sin is not deadly. We must therefore undergo some sort of cleansing or "purgation".
Matthew 12:32 (RSV)
32 "And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."
Here Jesus clearly implies that expiation can occur after death. Apparently some sins are forgiven in the "age to come".
Rosary/Marian issues/Intercession of Saints,
I included all three of these since they usually stem from the same misunderstanding of the Church's teachings about Mary and the saints. And we pray with the saints, not to them.
The Rosary is a meditation of the Gospels:
"Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee" (Luke 1:28)
"Blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb" (Luke 1:42)
"Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen." This is asking Mary, the mother of Christ's humanity, to pray for us. This is no different than myself asking you to pray for me. She and the saints are just as alive as you or I are.
Hebrews 12:1 (RSV)
1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us
Paul asks for those to pray for one another in 1 Timothy 2:1-3 (RSV)
"First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. 3 This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior"
Acts 12:5 (RSV)
5 So Peter was kept in prison; but earnest prayer for him was made to God by the church.
This is a clear example of intercessory prayer. It is one of many in Sacred Scripture. Abraham interceeded for Sodom in Genesis 18, and Moses constantly interceeded for the Hebrews.
"apostolic succession"
St Paul and St Barnabas ordain others in Acts 14:23. No one ordains himself, nor does anyone presume to act as presbyter without first being ordained.
The Church's authority is passed from generation to generation in Acts 6:6 (RSV)
6 These they set before the apostles, and they prayed and laid their hands upon them.
and Acts 1:20-26 (RSV)
20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, 'Let his habitation become desolate, and let there be no one to live in it'; and 'His office let another take.' 21 So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us--one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection." 23 And they put forward two, Joseph called Barsab'bas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthi'as. 24 And they prayed and said, "Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, show which one of these two thou hast chosen 25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside, to go to his own place." 26 And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthi'as; and he was enrolled with the eleven apostles.
1 Timothy 3:1 (RSV)
1 The saying is sure: If any one aspires to the office of bishop, he desires a noble task.
"Office" denotes an ongoing institution that is renewed from one generation to the next. Otherwise, why bother replacing Judas?
Scripture+Tradition
2 Thessalonians 2:15 (RSV)
15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter
2 Thessalonians 3:6 (RSV)
6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.
1 Corinthians 11:2 (RSV)
2 I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.
So you can see, tradition is not unbiblical.
Faith+Works
James 2:14-26
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. 18 But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.
Matthew 7:21-23
21 "Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.'
Jesus is saying that judgement will be based on how we live out our faith (he who DOES THE WILL of His Father), not on "faith alone".
John 5:29
29 and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.
Deeds will indeed be judged.
infant baptism=born again
Luke 18:15-17
15 Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. 16 But Jesus called them to him, saying, "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God. 17 Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it."
Acts 16:33
33 "And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their wounds, and he was baptized at once, with all his family"
Entire households, with no exceptions, were baptized.
Luke 1:15
15 for he will be great before the Lord, and he shall drink no wine nor strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb.
If no one can receive the Holy Spirit without repentance, then we must conclude that infants are able to repent even in utero, since in this passage we see that St John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit even before his birth. Which means there is no reason to deny infants the Sacrament of Baptism.
I'll address the Mass and Indulgences in the next post.....
Godrulz, what are the "extra/contra" biblical teachings of the CC? And where in the bible does it say it has to be in the bible?
Have you read the Ante Nicence Fathers? I think you'll find that the Catholic Church is mentioned by name far earlier than the Council of Nicea.
Catholic is the Anglicized (English) version of the Latin word Catholicus which is a Latinized version of the Greek word: καθολικη, transliterated into our alphabet as Katholikos. Katholikos means universal and is derived from kata (throughout) and holos (the whole).
In Acts 9:31, the Greek phrase: ekklesia kath olos, translated as "the church throughout all" (RSV) or "the church everywhere" (NCV), seems to me a likely origin of the phrase "the Catholic Church" (katholikos ekklesia) first documented in Ignatius of Antioch's letter to the Smyraeans in A.D. 107.
Acts 9:31 (RSV)
So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Sama'ria had peace and was built up; and walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit it was multiplied.
The churches in the beginning were united in belief, unlike today, were we have denominations who decide whether baptism is necessasry (or not), that all we need is faith (Sola Fide) and works are repugnant (or not), that Communion is only symbolic (or not), etc., etc. So the question becomes, what is the bare bones minimum standard for one to still be considered Christian? As I said, there are 40,000 denominations in the world today, with their doctrines set by the men who started them (Luther, Calvin, Wesley, Zwingli, etc.) and how they view scripture. I have over 20 "non-denominational" churches alone within a 10 mile radius of my house, all claiming to be only following the bible, yet believing different things. Surely this is not what Christ intended, is it?
Ignatius of Antioch, who knew St John and was ordained by him and later became Bishop of Antioch said:
"Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains [i.e., a presbyter]. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110])- Ignatius of Antioch
This quote is in regards to Polycarp, who also knew St John:
"And of the elect, he was one indeed, the wonderful martyr Polycarp, who in our days was an apostolic and prophetic teacher, bishop of the Catholic Church in Smyrna. For every word which came forth from his mouth was fulfilled and will be fulfilled" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 16:2 [A.D. 155]).
In addition, the writings of these men who were taught and ordained by the Apostles themselves look remarkably "Catholic" in doctrine and don't resemble any Protestant denominations.
As far as an "invisible" body of Christ, it sure looked visible in the book of Acts. If we have a visible head, Jesus Christ, surely we have a visible body.
Pax Domini
Godrulz, I was a JW for about 25 years and I am entering the Catholic Church next Easter Vigil. The question was to ask you what church was Paul referring to?
In regards to 2 Timothy 3:16, that verse says that Scripture is beneficial, not sufficent. The bible never claims that it itself is the sole rule of faith. If it were, it would be self interpreting, which it certainly cannot be, since we have about 40,000 denominations in the Christian world today all claiming to have the truth and "we follow only the bible". The bible alone, or, Sola Scriptura, is an invention that came along during the Protestant Revolution and was unknown in the Christian world for 1500 years. The WTBS is the logical conclusion of this doctrine, for not only did they claim the bible alone (which you and I both know they don't do, which is what the original poster is getting at), but they then changed Sacred Scripture to defend their doctrine.
If find it intersting that you think that no church is on "par w/ scripture", since it was the Catholic Church that determined what made up the "biblia". Christ founded a Church (Matt. 16), which in turn gave birth to tradition, and that tradition then produced the bible. If God guided the Church in determining what was to make up the canon, it would naturally follow that that same Church would be the infallible interpreter. Christ promised he would guide the Church into all truth in John 16:12-15 and promised perpetuity in Matthew 16:18 and Matthew 28:20.
Can anyone read the bible? Of course. But can everyone correctly interpret what it means? The bible itself shows that one needs the living faith community that produced it to understand it (Acts 8:26-31).
May the Peace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with you always
Godrulz, please read 1 Timothy 3:15 and then please share your thoughts on Paul's claim.
It's dinner time, so I'll address the rest of your response in a bit.
Godrulz, some questions for you. From where did Christianity receive Sacred Scripture? In other words, who determined the canon of the bible, i.e., what was put in and in what order?
And one more question. What is the pillar and foundation of truth for Christians? Thank you for your answers.
