Posts by bafh

111

"We Already Forgive Him" - What Does That Mean?

by cofty in

the children of one of yesterday's shooting have told the media that they have already forgiven the killer for what he did.. dylaan roof has not apologised for what he did.

he hates black people and probably regrets not killing even more.. what does it really mean to forgive?.

if the legal system asked the victims relatives what they want done next would they ask for dylaan to go free and unpunished?.

bafh

This thread has nothing at all to do with judging that is a red herring.

Oh, I beg to differ. Your whole argument is that the relatives of the victims are lying or being inauthentic because they say they have forgiven the killer when you can't imagine yourself doing it.

This is may not have been your original question - but it is related. You have no right to judge another person especially when you do not know them.

And just because others can forgive in situations you would not, does not make their choice invalid or wrong or make your choice some how more right.

111

"We Already Forgive Him" - What Does That Mean?

by cofty in

the children of one of yesterday's shooting have told the media that they have already forgiven the killer for what he did.. dylaan roof has not apologised for what he did.

he hates black people and probably regrets not killing even more.. what does it really mean to forgive?.

if the legal system asked the victims relatives what they want done next would they ask for dylaan to go free and unpunished?.

No. I don't think a parent saying, "I forgive you" and then punishing a child is a hypocrite. The punishment is the consequence. You choose the behavior, you choose the consequence. Parents are well within their right to teach children that their actions have consequences.

If you are trying to take the Christian view - there are plenty of verses that speak about not judging. Here are a few reminders:

Luke 6:37
"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Luke 6:41
"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

John 8:7
When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her."

Romans 2:1
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

Romans 14:10
You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat.

Romans 14:13
Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister.

1 Corinthians 4:5
Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.

James 4:11
Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it.

Forgiveness seems to have been reduced to nothing more than choosing not to be consumed by hatred.

I agree with this point of view. I do not think there is anything wrong with that. As I've been saying consequences are not tied to forgiveness. It is something I do for myself, not for the one who has wronged me. I can completely forgive someone, and still agree with or want consequences or punishment for that person. They are not one and the same.

111

"We Already Forgive Him" - What Does That Mean?

by cofty in

the children of one of yesterday's shooting have told the media that they have already forgiven the killer for what he did.. dylaan roof has not apologised for what he did.

he hates black people and probably regrets not killing even more.. what does it really mean to forgive?.

if the legal system asked the victims relatives what they want done next would they ask for dylaan to go free and unpunished?.

bafh

Crofty, I did read the thread. You didn't ever address my direct question: What right do you have to judge?

I feel sorry for you and the others on this thread who express such rigid and bitter points of view.

111

"We Already Forgive Him" - What Does That Mean?

by cofty in

the children of one of yesterday's shooting have told the media that they have already forgiven the killer for what he did.. dylaan roof has not apologised for what he did.

he hates black people and probably regrets not killing even more.. what does it really mean to forgive?.

if the legal system asked the victims relatives what they want done next would they ask for dylaan to go free and unpunished?.

bafh

ok, well, I guess I don't have a Christian view then. I think there are requirements that God may place on people in order to be Forgiven but I don't think that a human, in order to forgive another human always requires that. In fact I know they don't. Forgiveness in a general, human sense is just to let go of negative feelings toward the person.

111

"We Already Forgive Him" - What Does That Mean?

by cofty in

the children of one of yesterday's shooting have told the media that they have already forgiven the killer for what he did.. dylaan roof has not apologised for what he did.

he hates black people and probably regrets not killing even more.. what does it really mean to forgive?.

if the legal system asked the victims relatives what they want done next would they ask for dylaan to go free and unpunished?.

bafh

Hmm. I'm not sure what to do with your response Crofty. You don't stay on point, address my questions or offer an alternate view (for example, what do you think forgiveness looks like?). You simply repeat yourself over and over as if that is argument enough.

111

"We Already Forgive Him" - What Does That Mean?

by cofty in

the children of one of yesterday's shooting have told the media that they have already forgiven the killer for what he did.. dylaan roof has not apologised for what he did.

he hates black people and probably regrets not killing even more.. what does it really mean to forgive?.

if the legal system asked the victims relatives what they want done next would they ask for dylaan to go free and unpunished?.

bafh

Yes, I have a Christian view, but not necessarily a JW view. Jesus forgiveness of sins and subsequent healing of individuals did not require much. In fact, there was a "prescribed way" of doing things - the Jewish Law - that Jesus was the fulfillment of. I don't think as humans we have much insight into what God requires of any one person in order to be forgiven. Even the slightest turn to repentance might suffice.

111

"We Already Forgive Him" - What Does That Mean?

by cofty in

the children of one of yesterday's shooting have told the media that they have already forgiven the killer for what he did.. dylaan roof has not apologised for what he did.

he hates black people and probably regrets not killing even more.. what does it really mean to forgive?.

if the legal system asked the victims relatives what they want done next would they ask for dylaan to go free and unpunished?.

bafh

Yes, it is a Christian view. I think it is a misnomer to believe that Christian forgiveness somehow means there are no consequences for actions. Didn't Jesus forgive the sinner on the cross? The sinner was forgiven, and yet still died. The scripture says, "the wages sin pays in death" - that is the consequence. And yet, God resurrects and forgives.

maybe the confusion here is the word consequence - it could easily be replaced with "result". Your actions create results. Those results are independent of anyone's forgiveness of the harm your actions caused.

It could be something simple like - I tell my friend something in confidence. They don't keep it. I'm hurt, but I forgive them and we stay friends. The consequence is that I do not tell them confidential information. If it was a repeated pattern or something else very serious, then maybe I choose not to be friends with them any longer. That does not mean I don't forgive them.

16

Synthetic Blood in 2 Years? How Will the GB Shoot This Down?

by DarioKehl in

interesting read.

if they already allow "fractions," there's no way they can ban this.. here:www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/nhs-to-give-volunteers-synthetic-blood-made-in-a-laboratory-within-two-years-10343279.html.

bafh

When I read this, it seems they are using stem cells to make red blood cells. So technically, they are "manufactured" in that they came from a lab - but they are still blood cells. So my vote is they don't allow it even if it didn't come from a person or animal.

111

"We Already Forgive Him" - What Does That Mean?

by cofty in

the children of one of yesterday's shooting have told the media that they have already forgiven the killer for what he did.. dylaan roof has not apologised for what he did.

he hates black people and probably regrets not killing even more.. what does it really mean to forgive?.

if the legal system asked the victims relatives what they want done next would they ask for dylaan to go free and unpunished?.

bafh

It was not an attack, it is my opinion of the qualities that you are presenting in your argument. I happen to think that your opinion is narrow, immature and petty. That isn't a personal attack on you. It is you presenting a very black and white world view that is dogmatic and rigid.

I did engage in mature conversation. My question is "what right do you have or any of us have to judge?" has not yet been addressed. and you throw out an example of how a parent would interact with a child which is not relevant to the event being discussed.

No. You either punish or you forgive. Or you punish and then you forgive.

You seem pretty stuck on this point - that it is one or the other - but then contradict yourself and are dogmatic about what the "right" order is. What do you base this on?

In my world, there is forgiveness and consequences. They are not mutually exclusive or even remotely related to another, and are not required to be done in any particular order.

111

"We Already Forgive Him" - What Does That Mean?

by cofty in

the children of one of yesterday's shooting have told the media that they have already forgiven the killer for what he did.. dylaan roof has not apologised for what he did.

he hates black people and probably regrets not killing even more.. what does it really mean to forgive?.

if the legal system asked the victims relatives what they want done next would they ask for dylaan to go free and unpunished?.

bafh

ok. well, I guess I don't agree with your assessment. What right do you or any of us have have to judge? None from my point of view. Doing so just makes you appear immature, small minded and petty.

You seem very dogmatic and rigid. Life must be so much easier in black and white.