Posts by bafh

67

How do you feel about exJW's who resist our efforts to effect change?

by nicolaou in

i've met a few.

i'm not talking about the jw who, whether df'd or not, falls off the radar and just gets on with living a normal life - good luck to them and may there be many more!.

i mean the former jehovah's witness who is now enjoying all the benefits of a cult free life thanks to the efforts of many bloggers, posters and activists, but is critical of the efforts of someone close them to free more jws.

bafh

I do think bringing information to the forefront about the organization as a whole is helpful - but I do fall into the camp of "if they want to leave, they will." This is based on my own experience with True Believers as friends and family.

You can't have been a JW very long before you experience first hand the hypocrisy of the Elder arrangement or the constantly shifting Tide of "current thinking" Religion being the opiate of the masses isn't just a clever saying - it's true.

There is a lot of security in having The Truth and being right or more right than the next guy. There is a lot of responsibility avoided by not having to think too much or to plan too far in advance.

Given that some people , my mom for instance, needs and thrives on that structure - I don't think it is my place to disrupt her faith. Even when I have brought up valid points of contention that they, even momentarily agree with, I find they are still able to dismiss any evidence that threatens their belief system in some way.

i think when people,are ready, the information is there. And we are here to assist in the difficult transition out.

111

"We Already Forgive Him" - What Does That Mean?

by cofty in

the children of one of yesterday's shooting have told the media that they have already forgiven the killer for what he did.. dylaan roof has not apologised for what he did.

he hates black people and probably regrets not killing even more.. what does it really mean to forgive?.

if the legal system asked the victims relatives what they want done next would they ask for dylaan to go free and unpunished?.

bafh

bafh - So christian forgiveness is nothing more than choosing not to harbour a lust for revenge. It has nothing at all to do with the other person. It is nothing you wouldn't find in any self-help book or the advice column of a magazine.

And your point is....?

111

"We Already Forgive Him" - What Does That Mean?

by cofty in

the children of one of yesterday's shooting have told the media that they have already forgiven the killer for what he did.. dylaan roof has not apologised for what he did.

he hates black people and probably regrets not killing even more.. what does it really mean to forgive?.

if the legal system asked the victims relatives what they want done next would they ask for dylaan to go free and unpunished?.

bafh

The question is what does that mean in practice

Crofty - here is my answer which I posted last week:

Forgiveness is letting go of negative feelings such as anger or revenge toward the person who has harmed you. It an action a person takes for themselves, not for the person who they forgive. It is a way to free oneself from the upset around a bad experience. It does not require the other person to do anything, not even apologize.

111

"We Already Forgive Him" - What Does That Mean?

by cofty in

the children of one of yesterday's shooting have told the media that they have already forgiven the killer for what he did.. dylaan roof has not apologised for what he did.

he hates black people and probably regrets not killing even more.. what does it really mean to forgive?.

if the legal system asked the victims relatives what they want done next would they ask for dylaan to go free and unpunished?.

bafh

Now this same slave was owed a little money from a friend of his, also a slave. His friend could not pay it back yet and he too asks for leniency, but the first slave has his friend thrown into prison for the debt. This news gets back to the first slaves master.
(Matthew 18:32-34) "Then his master summoned him and said to him: ‘Wicked slave, I canceled all that debt for you when you pleaded with me. Should you not also have shown mercy to your fellow slave as I showed mercy to you?’ With that his master, provoked to wrath, handed him over to the jailers until he repaid all that he owed."

The forgiveness wasn't "undone". He was being punished for not showing mercy to his fellow slave. This is unrelated to his original debt and punishment that was canceled by his master.
The point here is that we have all been forgiven even large debts and we are expected to freely forgive others.

111

"We Already Forgive Him" - What Does That Mean?

by cofty in

the children of one of yesterday's shooting have told the media that they have already forgiven the killer for what he did.. dylaan roof has not apologised for what he did.

he hates black people and probably regrets not killing even more.. what does it really mean to forgive?.

if the legal system asked the victims relatives what they want done next would they ask for dylaan to go free and unpunished?.

bafh

cofty
I think what has irritated me about this is that it isn't authentic.
Christians respond to events the way they are expected to react. JWs do the same.
Here we have adult children of a murder victim saying they already forgive the murderer of their parent less than 24 hours after the event. The murderer is still filled with hate and has expressed no regret.
There is nothing authentic about this. It is a pre-programmed reaction. They are performing for the watching world.

What right do you have to judge what is or is not real or authentic for another person?

111

"We Already Forgive Him" - What Does That Mean?

by cofty in

the children of one of yesterday's shooting have told the media that they have already forgiven the killer for what he did.. dylaan roof has not apologised for what he did.

he hates black people and probably regrets not killing even more.. what does it really mean to forgive?.

if the legal system asked the victims relatives what they want done next would they ask for dylaan to go free and unpunished?.

bafh

This thread has nothing at all to do with judging that is a red herring.

Oh, I beg to differ. Your whole argument is that the relatives of the victims are lying or being inauthentic because they say they have forgiven the killer when you can't imagine yourself doing it.

This is may not have been your original question - but it is related. You have no right to judge another person especially when you do not know them.

And just because others can forgive in situations you would not, does not make their choice invalid or wrong or make your choice some how more right.

111

"We Already Forgive Him" - What Does That Mean?

by cofty in

the children of one of yesterday's shooting have told the media that they have already forgiven the killer for what he did.. dylaan roof has not apologised for what he did.

he hates black people and probably regrets not killing even more.. what does it really mean to forgive?.

if the legal system asked the victims relatives what they want done next would they ask for dylaan to go free and unpunished?.

bafh

No. I don't think a parent saying, "I forgive you" and then punishing a child is a hypocrite. The punishment is the consequence. You choose the behavior, you choose the consequence. Parents are well within their right to teach children that their actions have consequences.

If you are trying to take the Christian view - there are plenty of verses that speak about not judging. Here are a few reminders:

Luke 6:37
"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Luke 6:41
"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

John 8:7
When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her."

Romans 2:1
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

Romans 14:10
You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat.

Romans 14:13
Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister.

1 Corinthians 4:5
Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.

James 4:11
Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it.

Forgiveness seems to have been reduced to nothing more than choosing not to be consumed by hatred.

I agree with this point of view. I do not think there is anything wrong with that. As I've been saying consequences are not tied to forgiveness. It is something I do for myself, not for the one who has wronged me. I can completely forgive someone, and still agree with or want consequences or punishment for that person. They are not one and the same.

111

"We Already Forgive Him" - What Does That Mean?

by cofty in

the children of one of yesterday's shooting have told the media that they have already forgiven the killer for what he did.. dylaan roof has not apologised for what he did.

he hates black people and probably regrets not killing even more.. what does it really mean to forgive?.

if the legal system asked the victims relatives what they want done next would they ask for dylaan to go free and unpunished?.

bafh

Crofty, I did read the thread. You didn't ever address my direct question: What right do you have to judge?

I feel sorry for you and the others on this thread who express such rigid and bitter points of view.

111

"We Already Forgive Him" - What Does That Mean?

by cofty in

the children of one of yesterday's shooting have told the media that they have already forgiven the killer for what he did.. dylaan roof has not apologised for what he did.

he hates black people and probably regrets not killing even more.. what does it really mean to forgive?.

if the legal system asked the victims relatives what they want done next would they ask for dylaan to go free and unpunished?.

bafh

ok, well, I guess I don't have a Christian view then. I think there are requirements that God may place on people in order to be Forgiven but I don't think that a human, in order to forgive another human always requires that. In fact I know they don't. Forgiveness in a general, human sense is just to let go of negative feelings toward the person.

111

"We Already Forgive Him" - What Does That Mean?

by cofty in

the children of one of yesterday's shooting have told the media that they have already forgiven the killer for what he did.. dylaan roof has not apologised for what he did.

he hates black people and probably regrets not killing even more.. what does it really mean to forgive?.

if the legal system asked the victims relatives what they want done next would they ask for dylaan to go free and unpunished?.

bafh

Hmm. I'm not sure what to do with your response Crofty. You don't stay on point, address my questions or offer an alternate view (for example, what do you think forgiveness looks like?). You simply repeat yourself over and over as if that is argument enough.