Posts by Lionel_P

By deluding people into thinking that they have a choice between so-called liberal and conservatives they neatly succeed in preventing people from thinkig for themselves at all. The WTS does the same thing : "We are on God's side and everyone else is on Satan's side." Joe Alward does it with his insistence that there is an "either or" solution to the library carda nd the UN. Oldest trick in the book and it still works well. It's a neat substitute for rational thought and so is heavily used by those in power.

There is a solution, however - read, study and analyze for yourself instead of swallowing what the popular press has to offer.

Lionel

6

Alward's Library Card and the Portuguese Letter

by Lionel_P_Hartley in

despite a total lack of credible evidence alward continues to insist that the wts affiliated as an ngo with the un merely to get a library card.

since the various statements issued by the wts have been deceitful, dishonest and contradictory then there is no reason to believe them.

the onus of proof is on them, not upon those who documented this embarrassing relationship.

Lionel_P_Hartley

Despite a total lack of credible evidence Alward continues to insist that the WTS affiliated as an NGO with the UN merely to get a library card. Since the various statements issued by the WTS have been deceitful, dishonest and contradictory then there is no reason to believe them. The onus of proof is on them, not upon those who documented this embarrassing relationship. As it stands the WTS entered into a relationship with the UN that carried various obligations and which led to various benefits. Whatever they say their motivations were, why should we accept them ahead of the factual statements by the UN about what NGO affiliation involves? Especially when the WTS's statements have been shrouded in deceit and accompanied by lies.

Still, Alward turns the question on its head and says essentially that unless other evidence can be supplied (beyond the library card) then we must accept the WTS's explanation. However, as any freshman should know, lack of evidence for proposition B does not imply that proposition A is correct.

But, there is evidence that the library card was not the sole motivation for the WTS. Look what the Portuguese branch office said:

Article in Portuguese newspaper Público (Saturday, October 20, 2001) about the UN case:
Testemunhas de Jeová Ligaram-se à "Besta"
(Jehovah's Witnesses Connected with the "Beast")
http://jornal.publico.pt/2001/10/20/Sociedade/S05.html
http://jornal.publico.pt/2001/10/20/Sociedade/S05CX01.html
Excerpts:
«"The registry as NGO was made only to be able to give humanitarian help and defend the human
rights in several countries of the world", said to [the newspaper] Público Pedro Candeias,
spokesman of the Association of Jehovah's Witnesses [AJW] in Portugal. In Portugal, however, the
disaffiliation from the registry is not yet officially known by the AJW, which represents nearly 50,000
believers.»
«This [JW] official says the religious group to which he belongs has had "an important role" in the
help to populations of countries like Angola, Bosnia, Georgia, Rwanda and other African or
Latin-American [countries]. "To reach those countries was complicated and, for that reason, it was
necessary to registry" the WTBTS in the United Nations. But that registry, he says, does not
compromise the Jehovah's Witnesses with "any political involvement" with the UNO.»
«"It is not a political maneuver", says the AJW spokesman, "because without the support of the
UNO it would not be possible to distribute humanitarian help". And as the registry "does not violate
the statutory precepts" of the JW, the criticisms to the registry in the DPI "do not have any basis",
says Pedro Candeias.»

So, Alward - there is your evidence. Actually, this statement accords rather well with the basic concept of NGO affiliation - that it is done in order to advance the shared goals of the UN and the NGO.

All of this illustrates that the WTS is not to be trusted.

LPH

58

Question about WTS/UN scandal

by gilwarrior in

ok we know that the wts was, until recently, associated with the un even through the wts clearly condemns it.

of course the reason they gave for associating with the un is lame.. my question is this: what do you think is the real reason that the wts decided associate themselves with the un?.

i don't think that anyone has ever answered that question.

Lionel_P_Hartley

ps: Joseph I see also that you have learned the art of the straw man. You assumed that I was referring to Gillies' letter when you stated:

If Hartley is referring to the Gillies letter, then he must only be half-remembering its contents...

and then you proceed to address this nonexistent argument by saying:

Perhaps Hartley confused “sole purpose” with “sole means.”

The simple fact is that, as hawk showed earlier in this thread, and which I repeated the WTS stated in their Nov. letter:

" in 1991 it became necessary to register as an NGO to have continued access."

Does this provide the answer to your earnest question? - reproduced here

: Lionel Hartley writes:

The WTS stated that they were required to affiliate to get a card

: Really? Where was such a thing stated?

I'm separating this bit out a second time in case you missed it, given as you are to selective quotation - not a quality normally associated with an intellectually honest scholar.

LPH

58

Question about WTS/UN scandal

by gilwarrior in

ok we know that the wts was, until recently, associated with the un even through the wts clearly condemns it.

of course the reason they gave for associating with the un is lame.. my question is this: what do you think is the real reason that the wts decided associate themselves with the un?.

i don't think that anyone has ever answered that question.

Lionel_P_Hartley

Joseph,

I see you have bought into JW doubletalk.

The WTS can say whatever it wants to say. Nevertheless, the facts show that it affiliated for the purposes spelled out in the rules for NGO/DPI affiliates. It is, therefore, deceitful to imply that one can affiliate for some private or single purpose. One cannot - an organization that affiliates agrees to a broad range of obligations and responsibilities and agrees to shared goals. Affiliation is not the same thing as an application for a library card which is how the WTS wants to portray things. In fact the November 2001 letter from the WTS headquarters stated that

" in 1991 it became necessary to register as an NGO to have continued access."

That conflicts with your myopic view of this issue in that is states explicitly what Gillies implied - that the WTS claimed necessary to register to obtain a card. It wasn't. Even if you can't understand Gillies letter, the WTS kindly clarified what it meant in their letter from headquarters.

In the absense of any credible explanation from the WTS we have no facts to go on. You prefer to accept an obviously decitful explanation by the WTS as though it were a fact. Until the WTS provides a truthful explanation consistent with the known facts then I see no reason to believe them when they attempt to trivilaize the issue through deceitful means.

It may be that they did it only to get access to the library. Recall, however, that the Portuguese branch offered a different explanation.

Your posts are not helpful in trying to understand this complex issue. You seem most interested in proving a point which is unprovable because you have no facts. All of your posts are speculation and yet to push your point as though it were a fact and hinder legitimate discussion through what seems to me to be arrogant pedanticism designed to furthe the WTS's lies.

LPH

33

W. busy 'restoring dignity to the White House'

by Seeker in

jw
friends

just a reminder to all those partisan politics folks that both republicans and democrats are dirty, lying thieves through and through.

conservatives enjoyed piling on clinton and getting all frothy about how he dishonered the dignity of the white house.

then george w. promised to 'restore dignity to the white house' and instead of viewing this as a typical political lie to get elected, conservatives bought it hook, line, and sinker.

Lionel_P_Hartley

Seeker,

Good post - see also http://www.public-i.org/story_01_100400.htm

LPH

8

Library Card Defense - All aspects

by Lionel_P_Hartley in

this thread is for a general all-inclusive discussion of the library card explanation presented by the wts.

nothing within that context should be considered off-topic.. to get the ball rolling:.

by affiliating with the un as an ngo an organization agrees to support and advance un goals.

Lionel_P_Hartley

This thread is for a general all-inclusive discussion of the library card explanation presented by the WTS. Nothing within that context should be considered off-topic.

To get the ball rolling:

By affiliating with the UN as an NGO an organization agrees to support and advance UN goals. To help accomplish this common goal the NGO is issued a grounds pass, is allowed to send representatives to various briefings, meetings and conferences, etc. It also provides the NGO access to policy makers, academics etc.

The whole package is set up so that both the UN and the NGO are aided in promoting whatever subset of goals that they have in common. That is the reason for affiliation - commonly held goals. If an entity only wanted access to the library then it could obtain a library card without affiliating.

For the WTS to claim that they affiliated solely to obtain a library pass is disingenuous in that it ignores the above obligations - essentially a contract between them and the UN. Presumably, they affiliated so that they could meet the terms of their contract with the UN and so, advance their shared goals.

The WTS, and Mr Alward, apparently want to focus on the library or grounds pass as if that were the end in itself. While I personally believe that the WTS screwed up royally and, out of arrogance, affiliated for its own ends, which centered on access to library materials, that is mere speculation on my part. It is also speculation on Alward's part who, for whatever reason, wishes to accept the WTS's explanation uncritically. We must go off the facts which clearly show what the obligations of an NGO are, and what the benefits are that accrue to it - a grounds pass being only one of many.

Focussing on the library card is done only to trivialize the issue so that the WTS doesn't look quite so bad. The fact that the WTS lied in its letter to the Guardian also destroys any reason for giving them the benefit of the doubt.

So in answer to the question "Why did the WTS affiliate?" the only reasonable answer is "to allow them to further the goals and principles they hold in common with the UN." For those are the terms of affiliation. We can speculate all we like, but until the WTS issues a truthful statement that says something like "We screwed up and just did it for the library pass and had no intention of meeting our obligations to support the UN and quit when we found out what was required" or "We just did it for the library pass and were happily meeting our obligations to support the UN until we were found out" then we must accept the terms of affiliation as being the reason they affiliated.

Th etruth is, until the WTS issues a truthful explanation that is consistent with the facts - which might include a statement of being unaware of the UN's policies at the time of their affiliation then we have nothing to go off at all - other than a letter is that is a tissue of lies.

LPH

8

Was DPI assoc. even adequate for library access?

by Five Gospels in

ive been reading many of the un threads with interest but i am already finding it difficult to locate little tidbits of information spread across the numerous threads on this issue that i didnt bother to bookmark.

i think its already well established that the wt societys associative status with the uns dpi was not required to gain access to its library (as my understand is that any person can request permission and may thereafter be granted access on a temporary basis) but i also seem to recall reading that somebody actually contacted the uns main library and that person was informed that ngos with dpi-associative status do not have automatic access to the librarys materials but must still request a pass or card which also requires some type of formal application.

could somebody please confirm this and/or direct me to the relevant thread?.

Lionel_P_Hartley

In case I'm accused of not sticking religiously to the topic of the thread I'm starting a new thread with the reply I made some moments ago here.

58

Question about WTS/UN scandal

by gilwarrior in

ok we know that the wts was, until recently, associated with the un even through the wts clearly condemns it.

of course the reason they gave for associating with the un is lame.. my question is this: what do you think is the real reason that the wts decided associate themselves with the un?.

i don't think that anyone has ever answered that question.

Lionel_P_Hartley

Joseph,

I asked rhetorically if the WTS wanted access to the UN library. The answer, obviously, is that they did. I certainly do not agree with you that that is necessarily why they affiliated or that that is the sole reason for their affiliation. The explanation that the WTS supplied is a lie. They could have obtained a library card without affiliation. A library card comes as a benefit from affiliating, and, while affiliation implies a card, a card does not require affiliation as the WTS claimed. That is it is a sufficient but not a necessary requirement to obtain a card. The WTS stated that they were required to affiliate to get a card. That is not the case.

Why is this so hard for you to comprehend? We do not need to supply any evidence to show that the WTS received political benefits or anything else to dispute their claim that they applied soley to get a library card - again, affiliation is not a necessary requirement to get a card. So the WTS's explanation is bogus. The WTS clearly lied in the letter supplied by Gillies.

All we know for sure is that the WTS affiliated and that affiliation includes the promise to promote UN goals with which they, as an NGO, are supposed to agree. Thus, all one can say based on the facts, as opposed to speculation and demonstrably dishonest letters from Paul Gillies, is that the WTS affiliated for the purpose of advancing UN goals and principles in the area of Human Rights.

You are not bad as a WTS apologist, but that's all your arguments amount to - a repetition of Gillies' letter which the Guardian refused to publish since it was such an obvious lie and at substantial odds with the facts.

So, now Alward, what do you think of the propriety of such an affiliation - or do you consider that to be too far off topic?

LPH

44

Anti-JW leaflet campaign

by freeborg in

jw
friends

i have been a reader of this message board for a number of years and this is the first comment i have made in that time.

i have been part of the wts for 20 years my parents believed they had found the truth when i was 10 and from then on we hung to every word uttered from the platform at the kingdom hall.

my wife was a witness brought up in the wts all her life so the wts was a massive part of all our familes lives from parents to brothers and sisters.

Lionel_P_Hartley

freeborg,

Try these sites: http://www.geocities.com/plowbitch69/

and http://www.geocities.com/osarsif/index2.htm

lph

Lionel_P_Hartley

Posts by Lionel_P_Hartley