If I am no longer a member, they have no right to tell my friends and family anythng about me. I am none of their business! right?
never mind that last sentence...but the rest stands..
lisaBObeesa
JoinedPosts by lisaBObeesa
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17
'Religion is a consensual affair, not a permanent contract'
by lisaBObeesa ini came across this blog, "church discipline," some time ago, and it's been going through my mind ever since.... check out part of this post from dec 2008.... why is a bad idea to continue church discipline on non members?.
first off it is violation of domestic law.
religion in american is a consensual affair at all times not permanent contract.
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17
'Religion is a consensual affair, not a permanent contract'
by lisaBObeesa ini came across this blog, "church discipline," some time ago, and it's been going through my mind ever since.... check out part of this post from dec 2008.... why is a bad idea to continue church discipline on non members?.
first off it is violation of domestic law.
religion in american is a consensual affair at all times not permanent contract.
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lisaBObeesa
Wha Happened?, this really has nothing to do with the defamation thing...I'm sorry it brought the word up, actually.
It has to do with this:
Someone who says they no longer want to be a JW, is, as of that moment, a NON-MEMBER of the JWs and the JWs no longer have ANY authority to discipline them.
"..A similar case involving a Mormon was Norman Hancock, with the same result the Hancock was awarded damanges as the court saw continuing a disciplinary process on a non member to be a violation of their civil rights."
and this:
...To appreciate the breadth and unanimity of this I'll note that Jehovah's witnesses have a similar notion with different terminology. A member who is excommunicated is called, "disfellowshiped" while one who leaves on their own is "disassociated". There is a clear understanding that the Watchtower bible and tract society cannot claim disciplinary authority over a person who no longer considers themselves a member of the society...
so my question is this:
Could it be that JWs have no legal right require JWs to shun people who disassociate? Wouldn't that be disciplining a non-member?
I assume would say shunning is not 'discipline' in the case of a DA, but....
As I understand it, whether or not a person is disfellowshipped or if a person disassociates, the announcement and the results are the same...am I right about this?
If yes...if the announcement and the results (being shunned)are the same in every way, then how could they say what is happening to the disfellowshipped person IS discipline, but what happened to the DA'd person is NOT discipline?
Wouldn't the announcement that one is 'no longer a JW' which = punishing the person with shunning.... be a 'continuation of disciplinary process' and thus violating the DA'd person's civil rights?
If I am no longer a member, they have no right to tell my friends and family anythng about me. I am none of their business! right?
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17
'Religion is a consensual affair, not a permanent contract'
by lisaBObeesa ini came across this blog, "church discipline," some time ago, and it's been going through my mind ever since.... check out part of this post from dec 2008.... why is a bad idea to continue church discipline on non members?.
first off it is violation of domestic law.
religion in american is a consensual affair at all times not permanent contract.
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lisaBObeesa
another thread about this topic I'm posting here for reference...someone else who noticed this 'church discipline' blog and got to thinking...
Another letter:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/18983/1/Re-Mad-Apostates-form-letter
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'Religion is a consensual affair, not a permanent contract'
by lisaBObeesa ini came across this blog, "church discipline," some time ago, and it's been going through my mind ever since.... check out part of this post from dec 2008.... why is a bad idea to continue church discipline on non members?.
first off it is violation of domestic law.
religion in american is a consensual affair at all times not permanent contract.
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lisaBObeesa
Found one, mentioned in another thread...
Roberta804 used such a legal letter to DA was NOT announced 'No longer a JW'
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/members/private/219169/1/Important-to-put-in-your-letter-of-DA
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'Religion is a consensual affair, not a permanent contract'
by lisaBObeesa ini came across this blog, "church discipline," some time ago, and it's been going through my mind ever since.... check out part of this post from dec 2008.... why is a bad idea to continue church discipline on non members?.
first off it is violation of domestic law.
religion in american is a consensual affair at all times not permanent contract.
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lisaBObeesa
Thanks, Band On The Run.
I think these cases may be why we have seen stories reported here on JWN where people have had legal letters drawn up saying they were leaving the JWs and that there should be NO announcement to anyone under threat of legal action and it seemed to have worked.
If anyone knows someone who has done this (had a legal letter drawn up and NOT been announced 'no longer a JW' and so NOT shunned, I'd be interested to see links to the posts...I know I've seen them over the years...
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17
'Religion is a consensual affair, not a permanent contract'
by lisaBObeesa ini came across this blog, "church discipline," some time ago, and it's been going through my mind ever since.... check out part of this post from dec 2008.... why is a bad idea to continue church discipline on non members?.
first off it is violation of domestic law.
religion in american is a consensual affair at all times not permanent contract.
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lisaBObeesa
I reported the basic elements of defamation. It does not ruin your reputation in the larger community of reasonable people
Ok, Ok, I got it...no defamation. Thanks for being patient with me, by the way....
But what about this part of my comment?
A similar case involving a Mormon was Norman Hancock, with the same result the Hancock was awarded damanges as the court saw continuing a disciplinary process on a non member to be a violation of their civil rights.
me:
As I understand it, whether or not a person is disfellowshipped or if a person disassociates, the announcement and the results are the same...am I right about this?
If yes...if the announcement and the results (being shunned)are the same in every way, then how could they say what is happening to the disfellowshipped person is discipline, but what happened to the DA'd person is not discipline? Wouldn't the announcement be a 'continuation of disciplinary process' and thus violating the DA'd person's civil rights?
Again....thanks for your patience with me if you have already covered this...
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17
'Religion is a consensual affair, not a permanent contract'
by lisaBObeesa ini came across this blog, "church discipline," some time ago, and it's been going through my mind ever since.... check out part of this post from dec 2008.... why is a bad idea to continue church discipline on non members?.
first off it is violation of domestic law.
religion in american is a consensual affair at all times not permanent contract.
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lisaBObeesa
A similar case involving a Mormon was Norman Hancock, with the same result the Hancock was awarded damanges as the court saw continuing a disciplinary process on a non member to be a violation of their civil rights.
As I understand it, whether or not a person is disfellowshipped or if a person disassociates, the announcement and the results are the same...am I right about this?
If yes...if the announcement and the results (being shunned)are the same in every way, then how could they say what is happening to the disfellowshipped person is discipline, but what happened to the DA'd person is not discipline? Wouldn't the announcement be a 'continuation of disciplinary process' and thus violating the DA'd person's civil rights?
AND, If the announcement made for a person sounds exactly the same as the announcement for the DF person, then how could the announcement made about a DA person NOT be defamation? (yeah, that other thread has me thinking...)
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17
'Religion is a consensual affair, not a permanent contract'
by lisaBObeesa ini came across this blog, "church discipline," some time ago, and it's been going through my mind ever since.... check out part of this post from dec 2008.... why is a bad idea to continue church discipline on non members?.
first off it is violation of domestic law.
religion in american is a consensual affair at all times not permanent contract.
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lisaBObeesa
I came across this blog, "Church Discipline," some time ago, and it's been going through my mind ever since...
Check out part of this post from Dec 2008...
Why is a bad idea to continue church discipline on non members?
First off it is violation of domestic law. Religion in American is a consensual affair at all times not permanent contract. A person's relationship with a religion ends the moment they say it ends. It is a violation of first amendment rights to assert religious authority over someone without their consent. Marian Guinn vs Church of Christ Collinsville is an important case where the courts were definitive, " No real freedom to choose religion would exist in this land if under the shield of the First Amendment religious institutions could impose their will on the unwilling and claim immunity from secular judicature for their tortious acts." A similar case involving a Mormon was Norman Hancock, with the same result the Hancock was awarded damanges as the court saw continuing a disciplinary process on a non member to be a violation of their civil rights........To appreciate the breadth and unanimity of this I'll note that Jehovah's witnesses have a similar notion with different terminology. A member who is excommunicated is called, "disfellowshiped" while one who leaves on their own is "disassociated". There is a clear understanding that the Watchtower bible and tract society cannot claim disciplinary authority over a person who no longer considers themselves a member of the society...
Could it be that JWs have no legal right to shun people who disassociate?
I'm very interested in what others think of the points made in this blog post... Please do share!
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Fallout 2014
by wobble income 2014 even some dubs must start to ask wtf jesus has been doing for one hundred years, and there is a big potential for many to leave.. what more will the wt bull**it (writing) department come out with to keep the poor little drones feeding the hive, and maintaining the gb's rock-star life-style ?.
the over-lapping generation tripe will be getting on for five years old by then, surely "noo lite" will shine that makes the big a even closer or somesuch ?.
come on chaps, those poor saps in writing need your best ideas.
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lisaBObeesa
Sometime in the late 90's, but before I had internet, I was arguing with my mom and my aunt (they were JWs at the time) and I said, "Well, I guess we won't have to wait to long to see if the Jehovah's Witnesses are right. By 2014 the generation of 1914 will have all died OR the end will have come, and we will know for sure if you are right or if I am right."
They just looked at me and said, "Oh no, dear. That's old light."
I was SHOCKED about the generation change had happened, and even more shocked that it had happened YEARS earlier AND it was such a non-event to them that they had never even mentioned it to me. It was a monumental, earth-shaking change...and they had not even blinked an eye over it. I just could.not.believe.it.
So...I don't think there will be any fallout at all in 2014.
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MENLO PARK KINGDOM HALL SHOWDOWN, REVEALS "IT'S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY STUPID!"
by Bubblegum Apotheosis insexual harrassment suits were running wild in american businesses throughout the 1990s, the end result was "sensitivity training" and forcing mangers to sign contracts that revealed "we understand sexual harrassment is bad!
if i touch a girl, i get sued and the company is free!".
elder's are now trained to handle every situation that can possibly come up, if a lawsuit emerges, the elders are sued and the watchtower, at their discretion can defend their elders if they feel it is to their best interest.
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lisaBObeesa
Juan, not all churches are like the JWs (control your life).
There ARE regular, healthy, religious groups out there.