Why, tammy? He saved the Athenians an unwanted invasion. Was there any other way to get them motivated to build a navy? Perhaps. Was there much time left for action? No. What exactly does he need to be forgiven for, saving his apatheic people through the use of deception?
Knowsnothing
JoinedPosts by Knowsnothing
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12
Would this lie count as sin?
by Knowsnothing inhttp://edgeofcivilization.wordpress.com/2010/08/20/lies-and-politics/.
the story however starts years earlier when themistocles, a politician and general campaigned for money to build a stronger navy against a probable persian attack.
the athenians didnt believe him comfort, complacent and confident.
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546
non believers what if your wrong ?
by unstopableravens ini do not wish to debate anything here like i have said in the past i have much respect for most on this forum (believers and non believers) i am simply wondering if the atheist or non god believers every worry about what if your wrong?
it seems that many who were jw for so many years attach jehovah/yahweh with the watchtower and since the wt is wrong than god does not exist.
i ask this question only because i care about people and salvation thats why i want to help as many as possable come out of this cult,and since i truly believe in god i dont know what is in the cinscience of those who dont.
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Knowsnothing
Here it is, unstopable. Would this lie count as a sin?
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12
Would this lie count as sin?
by Knowsnothing inhttp://edgeofcivilization.wordpress.com/2010/08/20/lies-and-politics/.
the story however starts years earlier when themistocles, a politician and general campaigned for money to build a stronger navy against a probable persian attack.
the athenians didnt believe him comfort, complacent and confident.
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Knowsnothing
http://edgeofcivilization.wordpress.com/2010/08/20/lies-and-politics/
The story however starts years earlier when Themistocles, a politician and general campaigned for money to build a stronger navy against a probable Persian attack. The Athenians didn’t believe him – comfort, complacent and confident. And most importantly, they’d rather increase their personal wealth of Athenians than do anything to protect the common good.
Feeling strongly the need for a stronger navy, Themistocles did what many politicians have done
throughout the centuries; he lied. He told the
Athenians the small island of Aegina was planning to attack merchant ships, and they need to invest in the navy to protect their commerce. The Athenians agreed to give money to Themistocles’ navy.
Themistocles was proven just when he had built a significant navy to battle Persians forces. The interesting thing to note is Themistocles lie to the Athenians may have saved Ancient Greek civilization. Had the Persians won decisive victories at sea against Themistocles and beaten King Leonidas our modern world culture may be significantly different.
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546
non believers what if your wrong ?
by unstopableravens ini do not wish to debate anything here like i have said in the past i have much respect for most on this forum (believers and non believers) i am simply wondering if the atheist or non god believers every worry about what if your wrong?
it seems that many who were jw for so many years attach jehovah/yahweh with the watchtower and since the wt is wrong than god does not exist.
i ask this question only because i care about people and salvation thats why i want to help as many as possable come out of this cult,and since i truly believe in god i dont know what is in the cinscience of those who dont.
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Knowsnothing
knowsnothing ur first piont still it would not matter if you accidently killed someone in a car accident you can still be held resposable manslaughter.
How do I put this, unstopable? Accidents are avoidable. Being born with sin isn't. You go into the court house, and you are pressumed guilty until proven innocent. You are never innocent, because you are born. Just being born is a sin. Can you really fathom that?
and how can you say you never sinned on purpose can you tell me that you never lied lusted after a women on purpose.
That's true. I have. We were talking about inherited sin alone. Now you bring up intentional sin. That is where point two is applicable. You can't just have Jesus come in and save the day because you intentionally lied or lusted. How do you pay for that sin? I'm going to start a new topic on sin. I've got an interesting example that I think will be difficult for apologists to deal with.
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If There was a Cosmic Pain meter...
by cofty inimagine that it was possible to precisely measure the amount of suffering in the world at any given moment - a cosmic "pain meter".
decide for yourself what the unit of measurement would be.. we can only imagine a fraction of the combined suffering that is being felt right now.
physical pain, emotional despair, grief, desperation, loss, terror and hopelessness.. of course if there is an omniscient god then he knows to the last iota what that theoretical meter would read right now.. the bible contains a number of answers to the question of suffering - ever since the babylonian exile one popular answer has been to blame his nemesis the devil, "we know that we are children of god, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
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Knowsnothing
It's clear there is no god. How could a god who loves his children allow them to suffer so much?
You're allowing emotions to get in the way. You forget that suffering ends, at some point in time.
If there is a god, he/she/it should be accused of reckless disregard for the safety and happiness of mankind, for recklessly pursuing his own aims while causing/allowing universal suffering.
Well... what doeshe gain in causing/allowing universal suffering? What if there is purpose to it?
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546
non believers what if your wrong ?
by unstopableravens ini do not wish to debate anything here like i have said in the past i have much respect for most on this forum (believers and non believers) i am simply wondering if the atheist or non god believers every worry about what if your wrong?
it seems that many who were jw for so many years attach jehovah/yahweh with the watchtower and since the wt is wrong than god does not exist.
i ask this question only because i care about people and salvation thats why i want to help as many as possable come out of this cult,and since i truly believe in god i dont know what is in the cinscience of those who dont.
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Knowsnothing
Unstopableravens
Post 176 of 179
Since 12/12/2010cofty ok now onto ur next question about good just forgiving people without have the death of his son or anyone, if you went to court and someone was on trail for a crime and the judge believed the person was really sorry and he said you no sir you commited a robbery and stole 10,000 dollars and beat up that old couple who you stole from but ur sorry so im going to let this slide and have a good day. many would call into question what kind of judge is this wheres the payment for his crime where the justice. so god could do that just forgive but he would not be just in doing so.
Here is where your analogy fails. This guy purposely did something wrong. Inherited sin means you did something wrong, but not on purpose. Would it be fair if the judge didn't take this into account?
Another thing is this. Why would the judge let someone else get jail time, for something you did wrong. Only you can serve time for something you've done wrong, no one else can do that for you. It's not a question about money, it's a question about justice, about law.
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546
non believers what if your wrong ?
by unstopableravens ini do not wish to debate anything here like i have said in the past i have much respect for most on this forum (believers and non believers) i am simply wondering if the atheist or non god believers every worry about what if your wrong?
it seems that many who were jw for so many years attach jehovah/yahweh with the watchtower and since the wt is wrong than god does not exist.
i ask this question only because i care about people and salvation thats why i want to help as many as possable come out of this cult,and since i truly believe in god i dont know what is in the cinscience of those who dont.
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Knowsnothing
Let's start with sin, and specifically original sin. It is because of Adam and Eve we sin, correct?
We inherit sin. We've no choice in the matter. God hates, detests sin. Sin is whatever he deems it to be. Sin is what God doesn't like, what doesn't meet up to his standards. The minute we are born, we are already on God's black list! Since debt is always used as an analogy to understand sin, let's go down that avenue.
God is essentially a banker, one that hands out loans. Without him you can't start up a business (have life). In the case of Adam and Eve, he invested in them, in their life, with the hopes of returns (procreation, more human life). He gave them certain conditions they must agree to, and he wouldn't charge them anything. He would only collect debt (sin/death and transmission of sin/death to offspring) if they failed their side of the deal (eating from the tree/disobedience). They indeed did, and God collected. Here's the deal. People that weren't even born yet were entered into a contract they weren't there for! When these people come into being, they are already being asked to pay a debt they didn't even know about! The worse part? The banker has unlimited resources, but because he must stick to his own contract, he will continue to collect the debt time after time! What avarice!
At this point, I could mention Jesus, the nice wealthy guy comes in and pays it all off. Before we go any further, ask yourself, why do we even need to go that far? God already had the resources to pay the debt, he just didn't want to! It's not even fair to accept the nice guy's offer. All the banker has to do to forgive the debt.... is forgive the debt!
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I apologise Lord
by StopTheTears ini apologize on behalf of my nation.
the united states of america has become a large sodom and gomorrah.i am so sorry lord, you deserve far much better.
you have blessed us with freedom.
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Knowsnothing
Stopthetears, I also realized that the US can't really even be considered a Christian nation. There is much plurality in this nation. Muslims, Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Atheists, Satanists, Pagans, Sikhs, etc. all share a place in this nation. I think you've nothing to apologize for. This is a great nation that allows differing points of view, and it would be great if we could keep it that way.
You gave us your precious Word, and yet we have banned It from our public school's curriculum since 1963.
Why are the Koran, the Book of Mormon, or the Vedas banned from the public school's curriculum? You realize that what you ask is for a forced theocracy in what is a multi-cultural United States.
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If There was a Cosmic Pain meter...
by cofty inimagine that it was possible to precisely measure the amount of suffering in the world at any given moment - a cosmic "pain meter".
decide for yourself what the unit of measurement would be.. we can only imagine a fraction of the combined suffering that is being felt right now.
physical pain, emotional despair, grief, desperation, loss, terror and hopelessness.. of course if there is an omniscient god then he knows to the last iota what that theoretical meter would read right now.. the bible contains a number of answers to the question of suffering - ever since the babylonian exile one popular answer has been to blame his nemesis the devil, "we know that we are children of god, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
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Knowsnothing
Cofty, I always like to take opposing viewpoints, just to explore the subject further.
Imagine that it was possible to precisely measure the amount of suffering in the world at any given moment - a cosmic "pain meter". Decide for yourself what the unit of measurement would be.
You're already making it subjective, and indeed pain has been proven to be such. Some have high pain tolerance, either naturally born with such, or as an acquired trait.
We can only imagine a fraction of the combined suffering that is being felt right now. Physical pain, emotional despair, grief, desperation, loss, terror and hopelessness.
Ok. We agree these things exist. You would argue and say this is unnecessary. I ask you, why? What about these emotions is unnecessary? Isn't creation itself unnecessary?
Of course if there is an omniscient god then he knows to the last iota what that theoretical meter would read right now.
I'd say this is where god is limited. He can know it all, but can he experience it? Can he truly put himself in a position of suffering? Seems contradictory, but think about it. Can god die? Can god be flesh and experience waking up the next morning not knowing what will happen next?
ever since the Babylonian exile one popular answer has been to blame his nemesis the Devil
Where does it say that? The Bible mentions that the Babylonian exile was in fact God's own doing, God's own punishment on his people. The Devil gets occassionally blamed, but more than anything, it is God himself who executes punishment.
Along with that is the assurance that god is ultimately in control and, while he does not cause evil nothing happens without his permission.
Without God, is good vs. evil even definable? Isn't it merely a subjective mental masturbation?
So my question to theists is this - is god passively observing our theoretical pain meter or is he in control of it?
If god is merely observing the amount of pain caused by his enemy then he is impotent and unworthy or worship.
If god is in control of the degree of suffering permitted in the world then he cannot be excused as easily as his apologists imply. That conclusion has implications for the myth of a loving god.
I think the question is so off, so loaded, its not even wrong. You say, "If god is merely observing the amount of pain caused by his enemy then he is impotent and unworthy or worship." I ask, what about god allowing pain make him unworthy of worship? Why must his seeming inaction = impotence? Have we even taken the time into looking at why he would allow it? Do you think it possible that there is a justification for all of this?
You say, "If god is in control of the degree of suffering permitted in the world then he cannot be excused as easily as his apologists imply. That conclusion has implications for the myth of a loving god." I ask, couldn't suffering be much worse? How do we know there couldn't be a whole other level of suffering we can't even conceive?
My personal philosophy is that the world contains a capricious mix of pain and pleasure. "Shit happens" - there is no purpose, design or control. The good news is that things are getting better all the time and its all thanks to human effort. That's not to minimise current suffering but to see it against the backdrop of history.
I've thought like this too, but there are some questions that linger on as well. Why even care? The joyous and the suffering all end up in the same place, in the same condition. I could also argue things are, in fact, not getting better for the long run. If you managed to get a new car, at the expense of loosing your life driving off the cliff, would you call that an improvement? We've improved the lives of certain individuals, and have laid much of the earth to waste in the process. We have potentially caused more problems for our future descendents, to a degree and scale we can't possibly fathom. Our so called improvements are trash in the grand scheme of things.
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Which book of the Bible creates the highest number of awakenings?
by NeverKnew inso, it has been agreed that i will be reading the bible with my jw friends.
straight bible no wt.. we tried to start with matthew and move through the new testament.
i insisted on using the esvs i purchased from amazon for $.49 a piece so we could write in them.
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Knowsnothing
Wow... Knowsnothing and Neverknew... we're dumb as H*$(... LOL
I probably got fed mercury, lead, or was dropped as a baby... LOL