imagine that it was possible to precisely measure the amount of suffering in the world at any given moment - a cosmic "pain meter".
decide for yourself what the unit of measurement would be.. we can only imagine a fraction of the combined suffering that is being felt right now.
physical pain, emotional despair, grief, desperation, loss, terror and hopelessness.. of course if there is an omniscient god then he knows to the last iota what that theoretical meter would read right now.. the bible contains a number of answers to the question of suffering - ever since the babylonian exile one popular answer has been to blame his nemesis the devil, "we know that we are children of god, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
What if there is purpose to the suffering, in the grand scheme of things? - knowsnothing
Please share what that might be - cofty
Universal Sovereignty. Should humans be allowed to rule themselves? Do humans have a right to live without God's intervention? What say you, cofty? Should you be a free moral agent? Do you get to decide what is good or bad, or are you supposed to subjugate yourself to what God says is good or bad?
i do not wish to debate anything here like i have said in the past i have much respect for most on this forum (believers and non believers) i am simply wondering if the atheist or non god believers every worry about what if your wrong?
it seems that many who were jw for so many years attach jehovah/yahweh with the watchtower and since the wt is wrong than god does not exist.
i ask this question only because i care about people and salvation thats why i want to help as many as possable come out of this cult,and since i truly believe in god i dont know what is in the cinscience of those who dont.
Isn't being just the 100% application of law? Hell, even the Bible condemns being 'too just'.
Eccliastes 7:16 Be not over just: and be not more wise than is necessary, lest thou become stupid.
At the end of this long thread... my thoughts. What if I'm wrong? I potentially loose eternal life. Well... I had a good ride. Out of all the unspeakable odds, I was born and I existed. Millions upon billions of other people could've come into existence, yet I did. I beat those odds, if only for a few years. Then, I go back into the nothingness I came from. What a strange, fragile, yet beautiful thing life is.
i do not wish to debate anything here like i have said in the past i have much respect for most on this forum (believers and non believers) i am simply wondering if the atheist or non god believers every worry about what if your wrong?
it seems that many who were jw for so many years attach jehovah/yahweh with the watchtower and since the wt is wrong than god does not exist.
i ask this question only because i care about people and salvation thats why i want to help as many as possable come out of this cult,and since i truly believe in god i dont know what is in the cinscience of those who dont.
Unstopable, the God of the Bible isn's 100% just. He is merciful, which breaks justice. He is also vengeful, which is contradictory from mercy.
In life, I have learned to embrace the contradictions. It is God's contradictions I cannot accept, being that the God the Bible proposes isn't supposed to be contradictory.
http://edgeofcivilization.wordpress.com/2010/08/20/lies-and-politics/.
the story however starts years earlier when themistocles, a politician and general campaigned for money to build a stronger navy against a probable persian attack.
the athenians didnt believe him comfort, complacent and confident.
Well, it can be easy to tell one lie and convince yourself that it is for the good of people... then continue on to tell more.
Indeed, a slippery slope.
Plus... the invasion was probable, the claim goes. What if it was not going to happen, and the building of the army spurred it on.
On the other hand, what if nothing was done, and the invasion came? Would you let someone pillage your house?
What if it was not going to happen, and he convinced everyone that it was going to happen, and then instead of defending against an enemy, they invaded?
Wars are messy. Should I stop defending my country just because a friend of mine might be the casualty of friendly fire? Invasion wasn't likely, they only had enough for defence. It took some incredible military tactics to pull of the win they did.
Or something else happened to harm someone innocent, because of that lie?
The same goes for the truth.
He was proven right... or so the story goes... but how many instances of that go the other way? How many will justifiy their own deception (and would have been wrong) from this sort of thing?
Yes, we all attempt to justify when things go wrong.
Athenians: Themistocles, why didn't you build a navy?
Themistocles: You wouldn't give me the resources. You thought the Persian threat was over.
Athenians: Why didn't you try to convince us somehow?
Themistocles: I could've lied, but that would be wrong. Aren't you glad I didn't deceive you, and was moral?
Athenians: Ok, Themistocles. To thank your moral integrity, we will reward you with the privilege of being the first Persian slave!
Themistocles: Morality triumphs again!
You know the saying... oh what a tangled web we weave...?
Complex societies are a tangled mess, but we struggle through it and find a way to survive.
imagine that it was possible to precisely measure the amount of suffering in the world at any given moment - a cosmic "pain meter".
decide for yourself what the unit of measurement would be.. we can only imagine a fraction of the combined suffering that is being felt right now.
physical pain, emotional despair, grief, desperation, loss, terror and hopelessness.. of course if there is an omniscient god then he knows to the last iota what that theoretical meter would read right now.. the bible contains a number of answers to the question of suffering - ever since the babylonian exile one popular answer has been to blame his nemesis the devil, "we know that we are children of god, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
The other day, i watched a baby get cooked in an overheated car.
Where is the mother or father? Aren't they responsible? WTF kind of stupid parents are those?
Does that change your oppinion of me in any way? well god does that all the damn time.
You aren't god, though. Since you are human, and you are capable of ending the suffering, I would expect you to do it. The thing is, so would God. It is your choice.
Then later that evening, i noticed my neighbour was raping a child, i could see it happend from my bedroom window. But i didnt call the police, i just let him do it. Does that somehow change your oppinion of me? i didnt cause any pain, "man" did. infact, i told him the other day: "dont hurt other people". Doesnt that justificy my inaction?
I understand your comparison. Here is the deal. You as a free moral agent can choose to do whatever you like. It's your choice really. God, as the ultimate arbiter, allows you to be God for a moment. He allows you to choose. If you, as a human, allowed that child to be raped, you have chosen.
Thats what im thinking, the baby might be better of cooked -- it might provide a real growth experience for the mom! or what about the child, ofcourse i think my neighbour stabbed him and hid the body in the woods, but I bet the parents will get something out of it. How about you? if you got cancer, wouldnt you be thrilled to experience that aspect of gods plan?
I think you are being a bit narrow in your view. It all seems bad now, it all seems shit. At the end of the day, if it is part of his plan, there is nothing you can do about it. The suffering will continue for as long as he allows, to show how inept we are. We want our day as God? We have it. Yet, we are incapable of the many things that could use remedy. The learning experience would be to show us, in no uncertain terms, how horrible we truly are capable of being. Yet, we wish to somehow be above our mere human existence. We wish and pretend to be God.
Why not now? Why is God such a party-pooper? I want it now. Don't you see? The ghastliest of tortures, of sufferings, is temporary. No matter how bad it gets, it has an end.
Would I be thrilled about suffering now? No. Obviously not. If god is real and true, and his promises are true as well, isn't waiting out the temporary suffering here all the worthwhile?
yah, perhaps the child that god raped was having lots of fun. On one hand you can give a child an icecream, and on the other hand, you can boil it alive. Since you cant measure pain exactly those two things must be morally equivalent.
Morals without God are subjective. You can't claim anything is good or bad. It's just your opinion, elevated by the majority. Morals are established by the majority, in your world. Might makes right.
BTW. Your name is very apt, as in why on earth would someone be asking these questions?!?!
I love your condescending form.
the magazine sabado (saturday) launched yesterday (11/22/2012) an issue where the unknown world of jehovah's witnesses .
is revealed, and not for the bestreasons.
from the false prophecies, doctrinal inconsistencies, pedophilia and absurd prohibitions .
Allow me to translate the cover, starting from when they start talking about the JWs.
The unknown world that JWs are brought up in.
8 surprising accounts about day-to-day life in the church, in Portugal.
i do not wish to debate anything here like i have said in the past i have much respect for most on this forum (believers and non believers) i am simply wondering if the atheist or non god believers every worry about what if your wrong?
it seems that many who were jw for so many years attach jehovah/yahweh with the watchtower and since the wt is wrong than god does not exist.
i ask this question only because i care about people and salvation thats why i want to help as many as possable come out of this cult,and since i truly believe in god i dont know what is in the cinscience of those who dont.
it does not make the bad thing any less bad.
I still don't understand. I'll repost my example from a thread I started.
The story however starts years earlier when Themistocles, a politician and general campaigned for money to build a stronger navy against a probable Persian attack. The Athenians didn’t believe him – comfort, complacent and confident. And most importantly, they’d rather increase their personal wealth of Athenians than do anything to protect the common good.
Feeling strongly the need for a stronger navy, Themistocles did what many politicians have done
throughout the centuries; he lied. He told the
Athenians the small island of Aegina was planning to attack merchant ships, and they need to invest in the navy to protect their commerce. The Athenians agreed to give money to Themistocles’ navy.
Themistocles was proven just when he had built a significant navy to battle Persians forces. The interesting thing to note is Themistocles lie to the Athenians may have saved Ancient Greek civilization. Had the Persians won decisive victories at sea against Themistocles and beaten King Leonidas our modern world culture may be significantly different.
His lie saved lives. Tell me again, how is this bad? Did the Athenians feel butt-hurt from being delivered from their enemies' hands? Rather, were they greatful, even if his outright deception would later somehow hurt their egos a bit?
Here's another. If a thief steals from a thief and gives back to original owner, how is that bad? Do you see the importance of intent, motivation, and end-results? I believe that the ends justify the means.
i believe christ is god.
when i left the witnesses i believed i had to be agnostic.
through a scheduling conflict, i studied the new testament in college.
Really, the only 'believers' represented here are Christians. 'Believers' could be Muslims, Jews, Mormon's, etc., but I've yet to see one on here.
imagine that it was possible to precisely measure the amount of suffering in the world at any given moment - a cosmic "pain meter".
decide for yourself what the unit of measurement would be.. we can only imagine a fraction of the combined suffering that is being felt right now.
physical pain, emotional despair, grief, desperation, loss, terror and hopelessness.. of course if there is an omniscient god then he knows to the last iota what that theoretical meter would read right now.. the bible contains a number of answers to the question of suffering - ever since the babylonian exile one popular answer has been to blame his nemesis the devil, "we know that we are children of god, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
Cofty, you never really addressed this important point I brought up in the first page, regardless of how bad an apologist I am.
Why does God allowing pain constitute a judgment against him? What about is it about suffering that merits condemning God? What if there is purpose to the suffering, in the grand scheme of things?
The 'meter' you propose is something subjective. How can you accurately measure pain/suffering?
imagine that it was possible to precisely measure the amount of suffering in the world at any given moment - a cosmic "pain meter".
decide for yourself what the unit of measurement would be.. we can only imagine a fraction of the combined suffering that is being felt right now.
physical pain, emotional despair, grief, desperation, loss, terror and hopelessness.. of course if there is an omniscient god then he knows to the last iota what that theoretical meter would read right now.. the bible contains a number of answers to the question of suffering - ever since the babylonian exile one popular answer has been to blame his nemesis the devil, "we know that we are children of god, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
We don't have the power to end all the suffering in this world. But we could at least end that which we cause, ourselves. We just don't. As long as that
remains, no matter what God wants for us, and no matter what he has taught or continues to teach through his Son, we will continue to suffer.
Let's suppose we all followed Christ's Law, and mitigated suffering as much as humanly possible. We still have a whole series of natural events that are against our happiness, our health, and our survival. Love and kindness isn't going to stop disease, earthquakes, predation, tsunamis, volcanic erruptions, and the avalanche of other innumerable threats we face. Love and kindness is great and all, but it's not how the world works.
