Posts by Knowsnothing

106

If There was a Cosmic Pain meter...

by cofty in

imagine that it was possible to precisely measure the amount of suffering in the world at any given moment - a cosmic "pain meter".

decide for yourself what the unit of measurement would be.. we can only imagine a fraction of the combined suffering that is being felt right now.

physical pain, emotional despair, grief, desperation, loss, terror and hopelessness.. of course if there is an omniscient god then he knows to the last iota what that theoretical meter would read right now.. the bible contains a number of answers to the question of suffering - ever since the babylonian exile one popular answer has been to blame his nemesis the devil, "we know that we are children of god, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

Knowsnothing

Again your response does not work at the parking lot. God is slowly watching the baby get cooked and all the while I am supposed to think that he is sitting on his throne and going: "well, those people passing near the car, they should be more observant, they should notice there is a baby inside, bad on them". Cant you hear what a psychopat this is turning God into?

Hmmm.... How much do you expect God to intervene in human affairs? Would God saving all the collectively burning infants solve the world's problems? Would you prefer God to snap his fingers and make everything alright now? Why? Haven't people said they don't need God? Bohm, are you asking for God to bail you out?

God has also choosen. God never choose to do what he expect and demand we do.

For good reason. We think ourselves superior to God.

If i may translate the reply, god want to tell us we suck and that point is so valid to communicate he will allow children to be slaughtered by the millions; I

get the picture.

Exactly. We aren't fit to rule. Yet, we want God to intervene temporarily, or permanently come swoop down and end the suffering, yet continue on about our lives doing whatever we want. What spoiled children we are.

Morals without God are subjective. You can't claim anything is good or bad.

hahahahaha!!!

I laugh too! Who's morality is the most valid, then? Stalin? Hitler? Do you realize in a world without God, might makes right? You could show me all the different statistics about how horrible these men were, but on what/whose authority can you claim your ideology is superior, better than their's? If they had won the world, wouldn't they be writting and claiming what is good and what isn't? How is our current world any better? Freedom of expression? They can claim freedom of expression leads to divisiveness, and a continuation of war. Free market economy? Look at the shithole we are in now. Freedom of religion? More divisiveness. Etc. etc.

I think a perfect is example is the abortion issue in the US. Who is to say what is right and what is wrong? It is merely subjective.

On one side, they claim the woman is the ultimate arbiter of her body, which I can understand.

On the other side, they claim the life in the womb isn't being given a chance at life, which I can understand.

Is either right or wrong? Good or bad?

106

If There was a Cosmic Pain meter...

by cofty in

imagine that it was possible to precisely measure the amount of suffering in the world at any given moment - a cosmic "pain meter".

decide for yourself what the unit of measurement would be.. we can only imagine a fraction of the combined suffering that is being felt right now.

physical pain, emotional despair, grief, desperation, loss, terror and hopelessness.. of course if there is an omniscient god then he knows to the last iota what that theoretical meter would read right now.. the bible contains a number of answers to the question of suffering - ever since the babylonian exile one popular answer has been to blame his nemesis the devil, "we know that we are children of god, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

Knowsnothing

What if there is purpose to the suffering, in the grand scheme of things? - knowsnothing

Please share what that might be - cofty

Universal Sovereignty. Should humans be allowed to rule themselves? Do humans have a right to live without God's intervention? What say you, cofty? Should you be a free moral agent? Do you get to decide what is good or bad, or are you supposed to subjugate yourself to what God says is good or bad?

546

non believers what if your wrong ?

by unstopableravens in

i do not wish to debate anything here like i have said in the past i have much respect for most on this forum (believers and non believers) i am simply wondering if the atheist or non god believers every worry about what if your wrong?

it seems that many who were jw for so many years attach jehovah/yahweh with the watchtower and since the wt is wrong than god does not exist.

i ask this question only because i care about people and salvation thats why i want to help as many as possable come out of this cult,and since i truly believe in god i dont know what is in the cinscience of those who dont.

Knowsnothing

Isn't being just the 100% application of law? Hell, even the Bible condemns being 'too just'.

Eccliastes 7:16 Be not over just: and be not more wise than is necessary, lest thou become stupid.

At the end of this long thread... my thoughts. What if I'm wrong? I potentially loose eternal life. Well... I had a good ride. Out of all the unspeakable odds, I was born and I existed. Millions upon billions of other people could've come into existence, yet I did. I beat those odds, if only for a few years. Then, I go back into the nothingness I came from. What a strange, fragile, yet beautiful thing life is.

546

non believers what if your wrong ?

by unstopableravens in

i do not wish to debate anything here like i have said in the past i have much respect for most on this forum (believers and non believers) i am simply wondering if the atheist or non god believers every worry about what if your wrong?

it seems that many who were jw for so many years attach jehovah/yahweh with the watchtower and since the wt is wrong than god does not exist.

i ask this question only because i care about people and salvation thats why i want to help as many as possable come out of this cult,and since i truly believe in god i dont know what is in the cinscience of those who dont.

Knowsnothing

Unstopable, the God of the Bible isn's 100% just. He is merciful, which breaks justice. He is also vengeful, which is contradictory from mercy.

In life, I have learned to embrace the contradictions. It is God's contradictions I cannot accept, being that the God the Bible proposes isn't supposed to be contradictory.

12

Would this lie count as sin?

by Knowsnothing in

http://edgeofcivilization.wordpress.com/2010/08/20/lies-and-politics/.

the story however starts years earlier when themistocles, a politician and general campaigned for money to build a stronger navy against a probable persian attack.

the athenians didnt believe him comfort, complacent and confident.

Knowsnothing

Well, it can be easy to tell one lie and convince yourself that it is for the good of people... then continue on to tell more.

Indeed, a slippery slope.

Plus... the invasion was probable, the claim goes. What if it was not going to happen, and the building of the army spurred it on.

On the other hand, what if nothing was done, and the invasion came? Would you let someone pillage your house?

What if it was not going to happen, and he convinced everyone that it was going to happen, and then instead of defending against an enemy, they invaded?

Wars are messy. Should I stop defending my country just because a friend of mine might be the casualty of friendly fire? Invasion wasn't likely, they only had enough for defence. It took some incredible military tactics to pull of the win they did.

Or something else happened to harm someone innocent, because of that lie?

The same goes for the truth.

He was proven right... or so the story goes... but how many instances of that go the other way? How many will justifiy their own deception (and would have been wrong) from this sort of thing?

Yes, we all attempt to justify when things go wrong.

Athenians: Themistocles, why didn't you build a navy?

Themistocles: You wouldn't give me the resources. You thought the Persian threat was over.

Athenians: Why didn't you try to convince us somehow?

Themistocles: I could've lied, but that would be wrong. Aren't you glad I didn't deceive you, and was moral?

Athenians: Ok, Themistocles. To thank your moral integrity, we will reward you with the privilege of being the first Persian slave!

Themistocles: Morality triumphs again!

You know the saying... oh what a tangled web we weave...?

Complex societies are a tangled mess, but we struggle through it and find a way to survive.

106

If There was a Cosmic Pain meter...

by cofty in

imagine that it was possible to precisely measure the amount of suffering in the world at any given moment - a cosmic "pain meter".

decide for yourself what the unit of measurement would be.. we can only imagine a fraction of the combined suffering that is being felt right now.

physical pain, emotional despair, grief, desperation, loss, terror and hopelessness.. of course if there is an omniscient god then he knows to the last iota what that theoretical meter would read right now.. the bible contains a number of answers to the question of suffering - ever since the babylonian exile one popular answer has been to blame his nemesis the devil, "we know that we are children of god, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

Knowsnothing

The other day, i watched a baby get cooked in an overheated car.

Where is the mother or father? Aren't they responsible? WTF kind of stupid parents are those?

Does that change your oppinion of me in any way? well god does that all the damn time.

You aren't god, though. Since you are human, and you are capable of ending the suffering, I would expect you to do it. The thing is, so would God. It is your choice.

Then later that evening, i noticed my neighbour was raping a child, i could see it happend from my bedroom window. But i didnt call the police, i just let him do it. Does that somehow change your oppinion of me? i didnt cause any pain, "man" did. infact, i told him the other day: "dont hurt other people". Doesnt that justificy my inaction?

I understand your comparison. Here is the deal. You as a free moral agent can choose to do whatever you like. It's your choice really. God, as the ultimate arbiter, allows you to be God for a moment. He allows you to choose. If you, as a human, allowed that child to be raped, you have chosen.

Thats what im thinking, the baby might be better of cooked -- it might provide a real growth experience for the mom! or what about the child, ofcourse i think my neighbour stabbed him and hid the body in the woods, but I bet the parents will get something out of it. How about you? if you got cancer, wouldnt you be thrilled to experience that aspect of gods plan?

I think you are being a bit narrow in your view. It all seems bad now, it all seems shit. At the end of the day, if it is part of his plan, there is nothing you can do about it. The suffering will continue for as long as he allows, to show how inept we are. We want our day as God? We have it. Yet, we are incapable of the many things that could use remedy. The learning experience would be to show us, in no uncertain terms, how horrible we truly are capable of being. Yet, we wish to somehow be above our mere human existence. We wish and pretend to be God.

Why not now? Why is God such a party-pooper? I want it now. Don't you see? The ghastliest of tortures, of sufferings, is temporary. No matter how bad it gets, it has an end.

Would I be thrilled about suffering now? No. Obviously not. If god is real and true, and his promises are true as well, isn't waiting out the temporary suffering here all the worthwhile?

yah, perhaps the child that god raped was having lots of fun. On one hand you can give a child an icecream, and on the other hand, you can boil it alive. Since you cant measure pain exactly those two things must be morally equivalent.

Morals without God are subjective. You can't claim anything is good or bad. It's just your opinion, elevated by the majority. Morals are established by the majority, in your world. Might makes right.

BTW. Your name is very apt, as in why on earth would someone be asking these questions?!?!

I love your condescending form.

20

Cover article about Jehovah's Witnesses (portuguese magazine)

by TJ Curioso in

the magazine sabado (saturday) launched yesterday (11/22/2012) an issue where the unknown world of jehovah's witnesses .

is revealed, and not for the bestreasons.

from the false prophecies, doctrinal inconsistencies, pedophilia and absurd prohibitions .

Knowsnothing

Allow me to translate the cover, starting from when they start talking about the JWs.

The unknown world that JWs are brought up in.

8 surprising accounts about day-to-day life in the church, in Portugal.

Children can't sing Happy Birthday (?) nor participate in Christmas festivities in school.
Some followers burn children's books in metal bidons (trash cans? you get the idea, a metal receptacle)
They are discouraged from going to universities and from accepting job promotions
They must marry without ever having kissed during courtship (I've only heard this as an extreme practice, it isn't universal to my knowledge)
If their children wish to leave the religion, their parents are forced to cut relations with them.

546

non believers what if your wrong ?

by unstopableravens in

i do not wish to debate anything here like i have said in the past i have much respect for most on this forum (believers and non believers) i am simply wondering if the atheist or non god believers every worry about what if your wrong?

it seems that many who were jw for so many years attach jehovah/yahweh with the watchtower and since the wt is wrong than god does not exist.

i ask this question only because i care about people and salvation thats why i want to help as many as possable come out of this cult,and since i truly believe in god i dont know what is in the cinscience of those who dont.

Knowsnothing

it does not make the bad thing any less bad.

I still don't understand. I'll repost my example from a thread I started.

The story however starts years earlier when Themistocles, a politician and general campaigned for money to build a stronger navy against a probable Persian attack. The Athenians didn’t believe him – comfort, complacent and confident. And most importantly, they’d rather increase their personal wealth of Athenians than do anything to protect the common good.

Feeling strongly the need for a stronger navy, Themistocles did what many politicians have done

throughout the centuries; he lied. He told the

Athenians the small island of Aegina was planning to attack merchant ships, and they need to invest in the navy to protect their commerce. The Athenians agreed to give money to Themistocles’ navy.

Themistocles was proven just when he had built a significant navy to battle Persians forces. The interesting thing to note is Themistocles lie to the Athenians may have saved Ancient Greek civilization. Had the Persians won decisive victories at sea against Themistocles and beaten King Leonidas our modern world culture may be significantly different.

His lie saved lives. Tell me again, how is this bad? Did the Athenians feel butt-hurt from being delivered from their enemies' hands? Rather, were they greatful, even if his outright deception would later somehow hurt their egos a bit?

Here's another. If a thief steals from a thief and gives back to original owner, how is that bad? Do you see the importance of intent, motivation, and end-results? I believe that the ends justify the means.

132

"Believers" vs. Atheists- Why this formulation?

by Band on the Run in

i believe christ is god.

when i left the witnesses i believed i had to be agnostic.

through a scheduling conflict, i studied the new testament in college.

Knowsnothing

Really, the only 'believers' represented here are Christians. 'Believers' could be Muslims, Jews, Mormon's, etc., but I've yet to see one on here.

106

If There was a Cosmic Pain meter...

by cofty in

imagine that it was possible to precisely measure the amount of suffering in the world at any given moment - a cosmic "pain meter".

decide for yourself what the unit of measurement would be.. we can only imagine a fraction of the combined suffering that is being felt right now.

physical pain, emotional despair, grief, desperation, loss, terror and hopelessness.. of course if there is an omniscient god then he knows to the last iota what that theoretical meter would read right now.. the bible contains a number of answers to the question of suffering - ever since the babylonian exile one popular answer has been to blame his nemesis the devil, "we know that we are children of god, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

Knowsnothing

Cofty, you never really addressed this important point I brought up in the first page, regardless of how bad an apologist I am.

Why does God allowing pain constitute a judgment against him? What about is it about suffering that merits condemning God? What if there is purpose to the suffering, in the grand scheme of things?

The 'meter' you propose is something subjective. How can you accurately measure pain/suffering?