Posts by Knowsnothing

physical pain, emotional despair, grief, desperation, loss, terror and hopelessness.. of course if there is an omniscient god then he knows to the last iota what that theoretical meter would read right now.. the bible contains a number of answers to the question of suffering - ever since the babylonian exile one popular answer has been to blame his nemesis the devil, "we know that we are children of god, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

Knowsnothing

okay knowsnothing, but if you agree humans should not have the freedom to rape other humans then there is no reason to bring up the question of autonomy to begin with. you are not putting a coherent argument together, you are simply asking questions and then asking more questions and at no point actually getting close to answering the fundamental problem.

Autonomy has everything to do with it. Does suffering stop at rape? Please stop pandering to rape, as if rape alone is a cause of suffering.

The fundamental problem is why does god allow suffering. I didn't exactly come here with a specific argument in mind, I'm just exploring the limits of just how 'accountable' god is for allowing suffering, and how much a part we play in that as well.

asking questions, changing subject. god can clearly prevent evils --for instance the baby in the overheated car from dying-- without putting up a heavenly government.

That's true. He could do this one act without making a government. The thing is, however, that as I have repeated, that is not the only source of suffering. What else must he intervene in to satisfy you, without establishing some sort of government?

You're also trying to shift the blame on god when a human is fully capable of preventing this evil. Ok, but now that we've addressed the issue of personal accountability, what about natural phenomena over which we have no control over, that cause suffering as well? Things like disease, death, famine produced by droughts, tsunamis, etc. We realize we are not in control of these things, though we may try. God is fully capable of ending these, yet doesn't. That's where this verse would come in: 1 Corinthians 15:24 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

39

Are We Living At The End Of An Age?

by metatron in

jw
friends

i hardly know what else to call it.

i have felt many emotions in my life and anxiety, many times but this is different.. it's a sense of the impending, a build up of pressure like a wall of water behind a cracking dam.

when does it break?.

Knowsnothing

at least it won't be Armageddon!

Perhaps not in the Biblical sense, but how do you know we don't end up screwing ourselves up?

106

If There was a Cosmic Pain meter...

by cofty in

imagine that it was possible to precisely measure the amount of suffering in the world at any given moment - a cosmic "pain meter".

decide for yourself what the unit of measurement would be.. we can only imagine a fraction of the combined suffering that is being felt right now.

physical pain, emotional despair, grief, desperation, loss, terror and hopelessness.. of course if there is an omniscient god then he knows to the last iota what that theoretical meter would read right now.. the bible contains a number of answers to the question of suffering - ever since the babylonian exile one popular answer has been to blame his nemesis the devil, "we know that we are children of god, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

Knowsnothing

"Should humans have the freedom to rape other humans?"

No. They also shouldn't have the freedom to murder, talk injuriously about others, lie, steal, or anything else that is bad.

That would mean, then, that God would've placed a just and righteous government. We would now be subject to him. Would you agree that to end such a world, it would have to be subject to God?

have a moral obligation to prevent a baby from dying in an overheating car.

Why? Where does this obligation come from?

its a non-argument.

Says you.

106

If There was a Cosmic Pain meter...

by cofty in

imagine that it was possible to precisely measure the amount of suffering in the world at any given moment - a cosmic "pain meter".

decide for yourself what the unit of measurement would be.. we can only imagine a fraction of the combined suffering that is being felt right now.

physical pain, emotional despair, grief, desperation, loss, terror and hopelessness.. of course if there is an omniscient god then he knows to the last iota what that theoretical meter would read right now.. the bible contains a number of answers to the question of suffering - ever since the babylonian exile one popular answer has been to blame his nemesis the devil, "we know that we are children of god, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

Knowsnothing

Hmm... Rape is awful indeed, and yet I can think of many other equivalent sufferings, perhaps worse. The point is this, how much autonomy should humans have?

Allow me to rebutt with this. To some, porn is morally wrong. Say you like to watch porn, (if you are a male, I will assume you have watched it at some point in time). Should God interfere in your watching of porn, effectively prohibiting you and every individual on earth from such a practice?

Freedom comes at a price, bohm.

4

Hey WTS! Japan Is Totally Doomed

by metatron in

jw
friends

sales of adult diapers exceed those used for babies:.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-11-23/japanese-stocks-yes-they-really-think-so.

how do you borrow from your grandkids future if there are no grandkids?.

Knowsnothing

This is pretty sad... Japan reached great heights, and is now in its decline..

This other article is pretty interesting too.

106

If There was a Cosmic Pain meter...

by cofty in

imagine that it was possible to precisely measure the amount of suffering in the world at any given moment - a cosmic "pain meter".

decide for yourself what the unit of measurement would be.. we can only imagine a fraction of the combined suffering that is being felt right now.

physical pain, emotional despair, grief, desperation, loss, terror and hopelessness.. of course if there is an omniscient god then he knows to the last iota what that theoretical meter would read right now.. the bible contains a number of answers to the question of suffering - ever since the babylonian exile one popular answer has been to blame his nemesis the devil, "we know that we are children of god, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

Knowsnothing

Spoiled children? A person who get raped and cry for god to save her while it is going on is a spoiled child? dude... that is so messed up.

I'm not saying rape is a good thing. You sure like to twist things up, build up a lot of strawmans...

Spoiled children in that we want to be masters of ourselves, yet complain to God to solve our problems.

I dont really think you are being honest with me, but if you are, i feel sorry for you. I can simply tell you i do not believe in god and can very easily make the moral distinction between hitler and (for instance) a nurse.

Let's not squirm at the implications, bohm. In a world in which we make the rules, in which morality is subjective, what makes Hitler 'right or wrong'? Let it be noted that I do not endorse his brutality, slaughter, and crimes perpetrated on humanity. I'll post a youtube vid. that will go to the heart of the issue in a bit.

Yah, and we would get a silly book which claimed it was okay to stone people and glorified genocide.. crazy shit.. And people might walk around

and tell each other why the crazy shit was actually moral, but it wouldnt be, because what is good or not does not have to do with what someone

wrote in a book.

It has everything to do with what people opine, unfortunately. Well, if you wish to entertain the discussion a bit, let's get into it.

So anyways, here is a debate with Sam Harris and William Lane Craig on Objective Morality. The debate starts at 4:50, and William is up first.

He makes a good point. Objective morality is independent of human opinion. Good is always good. Bad is always bad. He says, "to say that the Holocaust is objectively evil, is to say that it was evil, even though the Nazis who carried it out, thought that it was good. And it would still have been evil, even if the Nazis had won WWII, and succeeded in brainwashing or exterminating everyone who disagreed with them, so that everybody thought that the Holocaust was good."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8wUOUmM1OA

106

If There was a Cosmic Pain meter...

by cofty in

imagine that it was possible to precisely measure the amount of suffering in the world at any given moment - a cosmic "pain meter".

decide for yourself what the unit of measurement would be.. we can only imagine a fraction of the combined suffering that is being felt right now.

physical pain, emotional despair, grief, desperation, loss, terror and hopelessness.. of course if there is an omniscient god then he knows to the last iota what that theoretical meter would read right now.. the bible contains a number of answers to the question of suffering - ever since the babylonian exile one popular answer has been to blame his nemesis the devil, "we know that we are children of god, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

Knowsnothing

Again your response does not work at the parking lot. God is slowly watching the baby get cooked and all the while I am supposed to think that he is sitting on his throne and going: "well, those people passing near the car, they should be more observant, they should notice there is a baby inside, bad on them". Cant you hear what a psychopat this is turning God into?

Hmmm.... How much do you expect God to intervene in human affairs? Would God saving all the collectively burning infants solve the world's problems? Would you prefer God to snap his fingers and make everything alright now? Why? Haven't people said they don't need God? Bohm, are you asking for God to bail you out?

God has also choosen. God never choose to do what he expect and demand we do.

For good reason. We think ourselves superior to God.

If i may translate the reply, god want to tell us we suck and that point is so valid to communicate he will allow children to be slaughtered by the millions; I

get the picture.

Exactly. We aren't fit to rule. Yet, we want God to intervene temporarily, or permanently come swoop down and end the suffering, yet continue on about our lives doing whatever we want. What spoiled children we are.

Morals without God are subjective. You can't claim anything is good or bad.

hahahahaha!!!

I laugh too! Who's morality is the most valid, then? Stalin? Hitler? Do you realize in a world without God, might makes right? You could show me all the different statistics about how horrible these men were, but on what/whose authority can you claim your ideology is superior, better than their's? If they had won the world, wouldn't they be writting and claiming what is good and what isn't? How is our current world any better? Freedom of expression? They can claim freedom of expression leads to divisiveness, and a continuation of war. Free market economy? Look at the shithole we are in now. Freedom of religion? More divisiveness. Etc. etc.

I think a perfect is example is the abortion issue in the US. Who is to say what is right and what is wrong? It is merely subjective.

On one side, they claim the woman is the ultimate arbiter of her body, which I can understand.

On the other side, they claim the life in the womb isn't being given a chance at life, which I can understand.

Is either right or wrong? Good or bad?

106

If There was a Cosmic Pain meter...

by cofty in

imagine that it was possible to precisely measure the amount of suffering in the world at any given moment - a cosmic "pain meter".

decide for yourself what the unit of measurement would be.. we can only imagine a fraction of the combined suffering that is being felt right now.

physical pain, emotional despair, grief, desperation, loss, terror and hopelessness.. of course if there is an omniscient god then he knows to the last iota what that theoretical meter would read right now.. the bible contains a number of answers to the question of suffering - ever since the babylonian exile one popular answer has been to blame his nemesis the devil, "we know that we are children of god, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

Knowsnothing

What if there is purpose to the suffering, in the grand scheme of things? - knowsnothing

Please share what that might be - cofty

Universal Sovereignty. Should humans be allowed to rule themselves? Do humans have a right to live without God's intervention? What say you, cofty? Should you be a free moral agent? Do you get to decide what is good or bad, or are you supposed to subjugate yourself to what God says is good or bad?