imagine that it was possible to precisely measure the amount of suffering in the world at any given moment - a cosmic "pain meter".
decide for yourself what the unit of measurement would be.. we can only imagine a fraction of the combined suffering that is being felt right now.
physical pain, emotional despair, grief, desperation, loss, terror and hopelessness.. of course if there is an omniscient god then he knows to the last iota what that theoretical meter would read right now.. the bible contains a number of answers to the question of suffering - ever since the babylonian exile one popular answer has been to blame his nemesis the devil, "we know that we are children of god, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
Sorry bout that, cofty. Seeing as you didn't contribute much, it was just me 'n bohm going at it. I tried my best with it, but he bested me.
I still think we can get something out of it, though. If God indeed doesn't exist, and the choices that we can make are in our hands, how can we reduce this "Cosmic Pain" meter? What can we, as virtual gods of this planet, do? Perhaps we are gods in development...
imagine that it was possible to precisely measure the amount of suffering in the world at any given moment - a cosmic "pain meter".
decide for yourself what the unit of measurement would be.. we can only imagine a fraction of the combined suffering that is being felt right now.
physical pain, emotional despair, grief, desperation, loss, terror and hopelessness.. of course if there is an omniscient god then he knows to the last iota what that theoretical meter would read right now.. the bible contains a number of answers to the question of suffering - ever since the babylonian exile one popular answer has been to blame his nemesis the devil, "we know that we are children of god, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
so its not very fair of you to make it sound like i am unreasonable just for pointing out there is such a distinction to be made.
I absolutley agree. The line gets drawn, but in cases like this, it's an opinion based decision. The distinction needs to be made, but the distinction isn't agreed upon.
So do you think sperm+egg is the same as a child, morally? If a man rape a 11 year old, should we then do something to stop the pregnancy even though she might allready be pregnant?
Yes. The fetus is the same as a child. The other question is a hard one. I realize the consequences that having that baby would produce for the 11 year old. Potential loss of gaining education. Ill-feelings towards the baby. Not enough means to support the child.
However, we all face challenges in life, some to a much greater degree, some to less. To know that I took a life, even if the life produced in me wasn't of my choosing or my fault, would be a crushing weight too large for me to handle. I'd know I had committed a crime. It hits home, because my mother contemplated aborting me, and I understand the situation she was in. She decided to keep me, and here I am. That's all I can say.
is it the united states of america?
is it democracy?
is it communism?
What is moral today, may become socially unacceptable later.
So basically, you're saying morality is based on the culture at the time, correct? There doesn't really seem to be this so-called greater good or evil, then. We are free to do as we choose, and we are free to accept the consequences the society we live in will bestow on us for our action/inaction.
More and more, morality just sounds like a power struggle for me.
how important is evidence to your world view?.
if you had to make a decision on a fact being true, what would be the deciding factor for you... your feelings and faith, scriptural statement or evidence presented by modern science?.
would scripture trump evidence, or would faith trump scripture etc .
Jgnat, thanks for the links. They certainly look fascinating. The second link particularly struck me, though I know this from before. Our mind affects our literal brain and body! Amazing!
how important is evidence to your world view?.
if you had to make a decision on a fact being true, what would be the deciding factor for you... your feelings and faith, scriptural statement or evidence presented by modern science?.
would scripture trump evidence, or would faith trump scripture etc .
So we have quantitative empirical measurements of minds or things we consider properties of minds?
Minds are an emergent reality from the physical reality of brains, neural networks, and chemical signals. We can certainly quantify these. We can also 'measure' minds in the sense that we can interact with them, through the use of rhetoric, and expect results.
is it the united states of america?
is it democracy?
is it communism?
KN: So the reason something is moral is because god deside it is moral?
Sure, why not? It's no different than the examples I gave you. Certain Asians decide eating animals alive is not immoral, because they decide it.
imagine that it was possible to precisely measure the amount of suffering in the world at any given moment - a cosmic "pain meter".
decide for yourself what the unit of measurement would be.. we can only imagine a fraction of the combined suffering that is being felt right now.
physical pain, emotional despair, grief, desperation, loss, terror and hopelessness.. of course if there is an omniscient god then he knows to the last iota what that theoretical meter would read right now.. the bible contains a number of answers to the question of suffering - ever since the babylonian exile one popular answer has been to blame his nemesis the devil, "we know that we are children of god, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
KN: you simply ignored my question:
Bah... and you've ignored many of mine, simply repeating your one horse pony show of rape and burning babies. Bohm, you wished to engage in this conversation for reasons unknown. Cofty's OP assumes God exists. He proposes a God that acted through evolution to bring about man (theistic evolution). I'm not still fully convinced.
Still, I can provide no evidence for my assertion of Bible God existing, so you've got me on that point. At that point, we can't even hold Bible God responsible for his inaction, because there is insufficient evidence for his existence. Gotcha.
Now, you still haven't answered mine. Why do you allow that unborn baby to die, if you can prevent it? You're blaming a non-existent God's inaction for suffering, yet you claim you are better for your inaction. Please reconcile this.
is it the united states of america?
is it democracy?
is it communism?
you tell me, how does god establish something is moral or not? you can just quote craig if you like..
If you look a bit further down the vid, I'll admit that WLC get's his ass handed to him. His main contention raises a good point, though. Any objective morality must be established by something/someone unchangeable. It must be absolute. We have seen from culture to culture, from empire to empire, that what is moral is subjective. Eating animals alive is a practice in some Asian countries. They see nothing wrong with it. Abortion isn't condemned in Western countries.
Allow me to explain this as best I can. I think it makes sense to me. God, as the Ultimate Authority, also has the Ultimate Power. He has the power and authority to homogenize all the differing moralites and make it into one. This solves the problem of conflicting moral values that our pluralistic society offers. It feels as if we are always trying to offer something better, but it is that very action that ends up dividing us all, in the end.
Put simply, if we could all agree on what is moral, we wouldn't even be having this discussion, but God as a perfect agent, has the power to consolidate one single, functional morality, regardless of what we think is and isn't. Sounds a bit dictatorial, but what better solution do you have?
imagine that it was possible to precisely measure the amount of suffering in the world at any given moment - a cosmic "pain meter".
decide for yourself what the unit of measurement would be.. we can only imagine a fraction of the combined suffering that is being felt right now.
physical pain, emotional despair, grief, desperation, loss, terror and hopelessness.. of course if there is an omniscient god then he knows to the last iota what that theoretical meter would read right now.. the bible contains a number of answers to the question of suffering - ever since the babylonian exile one popular answer has been to blame his nemesis the devil, "we know that we are children of god, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
okay so the reason why god should not take the baby out of the overheated car is because of some actions by some other humans 6000 years ago which
(incidently) you have no evidence ever took place? Is that correct?
You're silly. I like that.
The reason is the same reason you do not wish to intervene in the pregnant woman's decision to abort or not. It's her call. She calls the shots. You let her.
i would if i believed it was a child.
He who defines the terms, wins the debate. Good job.
is it the united states of america?
is it democracy?
is it communism?
The good part starts at 4 mins, 50 seconds. Sorry, but I guess youtube doesn't allow embedding time.
All law and morality is essentially based on what offends our conscience.
Too bad, I'm a psychopath. Nothing offends me, I am free to do as I choose.
So you go with: "morals is not based on human oppinion", and then its apparently a cogent argument.
So, God establishing morality is merely 'God's opinion'? It would seem to me that it surpasses mere opinion.
