Posts by mindseye

29

These things Prove if Jehovah is guiding and speaking through the JW'S

by Terry in

jw
friends

"some times the lord has let his people look for the right thing as the wrong time, and more frequently they have looked for the wrong thing at the right time.

" and "...it will be the other fellow that will have to do the explaining, and not we.".

1. germs don't cause disease.. 2. aluminum cookware will poison you.

mindseye

If you believe there's any evidence that supports evolution over creation, you would have to post it, so I can see what it is. The fact of the matter is living organisms do not... nor have they ever behaved in the way Charles Darwin theorized.

It's all there. Read any book on biology. No need to get off topic for something that's been discussed ad nauseam.

Opposers of Jehovah's Witnesses always dance a gig around the exact same issues: the definition of the generation in Matthew 24:34-35 or speculation about Armageddon. There's no clear explanations for the exact timing of these events in the Bible.

True, there is no explanation concerning timing in the bible. "Concerning that day and hour nobody knows" Then why did the WT society propose dates over and over? Claiming to be inspired by the Bible, when the Bible says otherwise? This isn't "dancing a gig" or nitpicking, these were major doctrines for a long time.

There were not just mere flaws in Christendom's churches, there was an apostasy that blocked the way to God.

I hardly care to defend any church, but looking at history, most literalist religions/churches are founded by genuine people seeking some spiritual truth. Then they organize and become more orthodox and doctrinal. Then corruption eventually seeps in. JW is a very young religion, and we're already seeing these patterns occurring. I suspect things will continue to deteriorate. The way to God/Spiritual truth is not in any earthly organization, but is an internal realization.

29

These things Prove if Jehovah is guiding and speaking through the JW'S

by Terry in

jw
friends

"some times the lord has let his people look for the right thing as the wrong time, and more frequently they have looked for the wrong thing at the right time.

" and "...it will be the other fellow that will have to do the explaining, and not we.".

1. germs don't cause disease.. 2. aluminum cookware will poison you.

mindseye

Both science and religion, in their noblest forms, involve the search for truth. Science discovers a world of magnificent order, a universe that contains distinctive marks of intelligent design.

Not to derail this into a science/religion debate, but this quote misrepresents science. Scientific truth is based on evidence, and the accumulated evidence supports evolution, not intelligent design.

Jehovah's Witnesses are sincere truth seekers. Information published by Jehovah's Witnesses has a consistent pattern of corresponding to universal truth

There's a pattern, but it is hardly consistent. Wildly changing the definition of 'generation', multiple date changes and other 'new light' reflects an inconsistency that is incompatible with the term 'truth'.

Case in point, if the flaws weren't there, this wouldn't change your desire to be a part of Jehovah's Organization.

Whatever the case, the flaws are there. And in abundance. Which makes them no different than the churches of 'Christendom' they are so eager to criticize.

14

Paperless society?

by AK - Jeff in

jw
friends

with the advances in digital communication, when will society move to paperless?.

nooks/kindles are making books obsolete.

computer/internet is making newsprint obsolete.

mindseye

Maybe not paperless, but less paper. Don't know about society, but my home has a lot less paper (and other stuff) thanks to digital media. I read newspapers, magazines and a lot of other info online instead of print. Music, etc. is also mostly digital, so no piles of CDs and other crap. I love that digital media eliminates clutter.

Like others here, I still like the feel of a real book. I don't think I'll ever go without a shelf of books, but maybe if I get an iPad I will purchase less dead trees.

15

THE INTERNET - The Means For A Global Revolution?

by sizemik in

jw
friends

we recently had a tour here in new zealand from the musical legend herbie hancock.

during the tour he engaged in a media interview where he expressed himself about the effects of the internet on the global community.. he spoke with intelligence and refreshing optimism about the potential of the internet and the opportunities it opens up for the world community.. in short (and i'm going only from memory here), he expressed how he felt the drawing together of individuals through the internet, and the opportunity for large groups of people to speak with a combined voice, had the capacity to initiate major change.

he highlighted the further potential for large, instantaneous, interest groups, to both highlight issues and bring pressure on world leaders to initiate change.. a recent example is the petitioning of ugandan govt officials regarding the proposed harsh anti-gay legislation being presented before the ugandan parliament.

mindseye

After the printing press, the internet is the most liberating medium in our history! Religions, governments and other institutions try their best to regulate, censor and control information. But information yearns to be free. The revolutions in the Arab world, the petition against the Ugandan government and Wikileaks are all examples of the information revolution. This forum is an example of how people can take the reins from a high control group. There are similar forums for ex-members of Mormonism and Scientology as well. These religions can demonize the internet, but in doing so they expose their own weakness and fear. We live in awesome times!

3

Do you find JW's have a way of getting in your head & you can't shake it?

by InterestedOne in

jw
friends

i have a jw acquaintance whom i do odd jobs for because we supposedly became friends a few years ago.

we became acquainted before i knew about her worldview.

when i do odd jobs for her, sometimes in passing she will make not-overtly-religious-but-still-jw-type comments that make my skin crawl, but i don't respond.

mindseye

Yeah, it's a JW thing. When faced with any kind of criticism that is difficult to counter, a JW will use the "upbuilding" card. I've had someone in my family use this term to me several times. It's a common defense mechanism, a bit of canned programming, and it usually means you're making a valid point or really bugging them in some way.

In some cases I responded with "Well, being upbuilding is not always a good thing. Some things should be questioned and even criticized." or point out how they go door to door trying to change peoples' religion, which is not really upbuilding. Then the Witness has to do further mental gymnastics.

Yes, it can be frustrating to get into discussions with witnesses. The lack of logic can be bewildering at times, and it has left me frustrated like you're describing! So I tend to avoid it when possible, though I get in the occasional debate. When I do it's usually a waste of time. If it's just the odd comment directed my way, I'll usually just ignore it. And I always show how happy I am with my intellectual & spiritual freedom.

46

God: the central question

by ixthis in

of all the issues affecting every person's picture of reality, nothing is more fundamental than questions about god.. is there one god, creator and sovereign of all?could there be more than one god?

or no god at all?if there is a god (or gods), then what is that god (or gods) like?nothing determines your worldview-and the course of your life-more than how you answer those questions.

yet some atheists like to make light of the god question.

mindseye

Nothing determines your worldview-and the course of your life-more than how you answer those question

Not really. As an agnostic I answer "I dunno" to all of the above, and go about my business and live the best life I can. Since God doesn't directly communicate with us, then we have no objective way of proving that He/She/It exists. That's why religious belief is called faith, you have to take a leap of faith to believe.

Now I have a very Jungian view of "God", that God is consciousness. I believe that the concept of God is still relevant to our psyche, even though he may not literally exist. But those are deep waters for longer post.

We who believe in one God see all of creation as permeated with personality, packed with moral meaning, and filled with eternal purpose... Atheists, on the other hand, see reality as the product of mindless, impersonal, and purposeless processes.

These are drastic simplifications. Many atheists and agnostics can and do have lives filled with meaning. We do have a sense awe and wonder of the universe. This is what Einstein called "God". Existentialism, Buddhism, Taoism, Pantheism and many other belief systems give man purpose without a need for an Anthropomorphic god.

Morals are man made. You can see this in the Bible, as morality evolves from bronze age barbarity to the more compassionate teachings of Jesus.

If God exists as described in the Bible, then abortion, same-sex "marriage," embryonic stem-cell research, and so on are clearly wrong. If not, then whether they're right or wrong is ours to decide, and no decision we made could possibly be wrong.

If God exists as described in the Bible, then we have a whole host of moral issues to deal with, because much that is perpetuated by him in the Bible is reprehensible by any decent moral standard.

For instance, since you mentioned abortion, here's a relevant verse:

Happy is the one who takes your babies and smashes them against the rocks! Psalms 137: 9

That's just one example, there's a lot more genocide, polygamy, abuse and other immoral examples. But I want to keep this post short!

328

A few Dawkins quotes to think about.

by AK - Jeff in

jw
friends

"faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence.

faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence.".

"my last vestige of "hands off religion" respect disappeared in the smoke and choking dust of september 11th 2001, followed by the "national day of prayer," when prelates and pastors did their tremulous martin luther king impersonations and urged people of mutually incompatible faiths to hold hands, united in homage to the very force that caused the problem in the first place.".

mindseye

Who was the "atheists" "saint" before Dawkins?

Atheists & freethinkers don't glorify their saints, they question them as every skeptic should. Having said that, there are models of atheist/agnostic intellectual integrity. One I can think of is Robert G. Ingersoll, the abolitionist civil war veteran. He wrote the book "Some Mistakes of Moses", and spoke openly about his agnosticism at a time when took much bravery.

And then there are a whole list of philosophers, but that could take a while.

On topic, I just read Dawkin's "God Delusion" a few months ago. The guy is a great writer and offers the most lucid arguments for atheism I've ever read. My only issue with him, as with many of the "New Atheists" like Hitchens, is that they tend to be very reductionist in their arguments against religion. Their main target should be fundamentalism, but they tend to conflate other religious & spiritual traditions along with it. That is simplistic, IMO.

116

I've Decided That It'll Be Best For Me To Return To The Kingdom Hall.

by Philadelphia Ponos in

jw
friends

after carefully evaluating the my current life situation, i've come to the conclusion that returning to the hall will be best for me.

i simply just don't fit in with the rest of the world.

i don't drink, smoke, have sex, go to clubs, listen to worldly music, watch movies, or gamble.

mindseye

After carefully evaluating the my current life situation, I've come to the conclusion that returning to the Hall will be best for me. I simply just don't fit in with the rest of the world. I don't drink, smoke, have sex, go to clubs, listen to worldly music, watch movies, or gamble. (Although not to seem self righteous I must confess that on ocassion I do look at pornography

Well at least you have 1 out of 8. In all seriousness, though, I'm guessing that you're either rather young or inexperienced in life (I don't mean this to be condescending, I relate because I was the same way for a long time). Basing your view of the 'world' after some roughneck guys you work with is simplistic. I relate to that experience because I grew up in the south, where many guys have this macho attitude and hard drinking lifestyle. But I left the country and went to college, where I met people from all walks of life. I've met people who are atheists who do not do any of the things above. I've also met good people from various religions, including non-Christian ones. And there's always pricks from every background, it's just human nature.

The reality is if you want to go back you will find a way. The knee jerk reaction on this board is to discourage ones from going back. But in my experience some individuals 'need' the JW religion, because honestly they know no other way to function. I find this sad, but I also realize my path is not for everyone. And if you are truly happy as a witness, than more power to you! Just realize that there's a wonderful complex world of experiences and ideas out here that you have access to, and unlike the JW religion, the door is never closed and you are never shunned.

50

Why the stunning lack of accurate, historical evidence for Jesus Christ?

by nicolaou in

by no means a new topic for discussion but always worth a fresh airing .

i'd suggest that the 1st century was quite a well documented time.

we have lots of historical evidence for important people who actually existed.

mindseye

There is little hard evidence, but chances are there was a man named Jesus, a preacher/revolutionary who raised the ire of the Roman authorities.

What is more doubtful is the accuracy of the gospels, considering that they were written so long after Jesus' death (and that there are contradictions between them as well.)

Nonetheless, for many the historicity of Jesus is almost irrelevant. Like Buddha and Lao Tzu, for many Jesus serves as a symbol for certain ideas. He's a symbol for principles like compassion, love and sacrifice. The issue of existence is mostly an issue for strict literalists/fundamentalists, but so is everything else in science and history.

103

How the WTBTS creates atheists

by Nickolas in

i am an atheist.

i arrived at this juncture in my life despite not wanting to.

when i first met the witnesses at 22 i was a seeker looking for answers to the question of life - in other words, prime cult target material.

mindseye

It's a natural pattern. First one realizes the WT is not the 'truth'. Then other 'truths' are subject to investigation. The Bible is next. As document of literal 'truth', the Bible does not stand up to logic, science and even ethics/morals.

In this manner the WT creates skeptics. In my view, this is a good thing. The world needs more skeptics. Too many just accept the ideas and values that they are raised with.

I agree with leavingwt on the WTs fallacious teachings about other religions. Just like their literature on evolution, the views of other religions espoused by the WT are a laughable caricature. As someone with an affinity for eastern thought, I remember their descriptions on Taoism and Buddhism particularly simplistic and distorted.