kramer

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Posts by kramer

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  44

  What crime should elders report?

  by kramer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  so, i am trying to get my head around what the right position of elders should be when they come across crime is.. i think i get the issuess around clergy confidentiality - and how that might potentially be breached when they talk about it to other elders, let alone the police.. but if people are saying that elders - or clergy of another faith should report crime to the police when it is confessed to the, then where are the boundaries.. so if someone says they should report to police on a confessed example of child abuse, that's one thing.. how about reporting to police consensual sex between a 19year old and 15 year old - which is statutory rape in the uk.

  how about criminal fraud if they come across it.

  assault on a congregant?.

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  kramer

  @rebelfighter - yes I agree our brothers should go through that sort of process, compulsory for appointed people around designing person protection procedures, and for all charity volunteers there should be a day of introduction, repeated annually about this
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  44

  What crime should elders report?

  by kramer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  so, i am trying to get my head around what the right position of elders should be when they come across crime is.. i think i get the issuess around clergy confidentiality - and how that might potentially be breached when they talk about it to other elders, let alone the police.. but if people are saying that elders - or clergy of another faith should report crime to the police when it is confessed to the, then where are the boundaries.. so if someone says they should report to police on a confessed example of child abuse, that's one thing.. how about reporting to police consensual sex between a 19year old and 15 year old - which is statutory rape in the uk.

  how about criminal fraud if they come across it.

  assault on a congregant?.

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  3. 
• 

  kramer

  @landers, maybe you are replying from a Scandinavian perspective (from your name)..in the UK or US that obligation isn't there outside of the public sector
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  44

  What crime should elders report?

  by kramer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  so, i am trying to get my head around what the right position of elders should be when they come across crime is.. i think i get the issuess around clergy confidentiality - and how that might potentially be breached when they talk about it to other elders, let alone the police.. but if people are saying that elders - or clergy of another faith should report crime to the police when it is confessed to the, then where are the boundaries.. so if someone says they should report to police on a confessed example of child abuse, that's one thing.. how about reporting to police consensual sex between a 19year old and 15 year old - which is statutory rape in the uk.

  how about criminal fraud if they come across it.

  assault on a congregant?.

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  3. 
• 

  kramer

  @loveunihateexams so, the elders should report speeding offences? Or jay walking, or assault on a congregant?
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  44

  What crime should elders report?

  by kramer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  so, i am trying to get my head around what the right position of elders should be when they come across crime is.. i think i get the issuess around clergy confidentiality - and how that might potentially be breached when they talk about it to other elders, let alone the police.. but if people are saying that elders - or clergy of another faith should report crime to the police when it is confessed to the, then where are the boundaries.. so if someone says they should report to police on a confessed example of child abuse, that's one thing.. how about reporting to police consensual sex between a 19year old and 15 year old - which is statutory rape in the uk.

  how about criminal fraud if they come across it.

  assault on a congregant?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  kramer

  @anders Andersen, what law are you referring to in, which country, I don't know of a law (in the UK) that requires individuals or organisations to report accusations of crime

  so the elders should report every accusation (not proven claim) of petty theft, or assault?
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  44

  What crime should elders report?

  by kramer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  so, i am trying to get my head around what the right position of elders should be when they come across crime is.. i think i get the issuess around clergy confidentiality - and how that might potentially be breached when they talk about it to other elders, let alone the police.. but if people are saying that elders - or clergy of another faith should report crime to the police when it is confessed to the, then where are the boundaries.. so if someone says they should report to police on a confessed example of child abuse, that's one thing.. how about reporting to police consensual sex between a 19year old and 15 year old - which is statutory rape in the uk.

  how about criminal fraud if they come across it.

  assault on a congregant?.

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  3. 
• 

  kramer

  @jwleaks - yes, I guess for insurance purposes, it's necessary (unless they underwrite the risk themselves, not sure if they do)

  the Borg get criticised for not reporting - but I haven't seen anyone offer a comprehensive framework for how it should be (they of course should have one and make it publicly available
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  44

  What crime should elders report?

  by kramer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  so, i am trying to get my head around what the right position of elders should be when they come across crime is.. i think i get the issuess around clergy confidentiality - and how that might potentially be breached when they talk about it to other elders, let alone the police.. but if people are saying that elders - or clergy of another faith should report crime to the police when it is confessed to the, then where are the boundaries.. so if someone says they should report to police on a confessed example of child abuse, that's one thing.. how about reporting to police consensual sex between a 19year old and 15 year old - which is statutory rape in the uk.

  how about criminal fraud if they come across it.

  assault on a congregant?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  kramer

  How about an example where a brother is dealt with judicially on drink driving, where they were not caught by the police, should the elders report that? Does it make a difference if the car was empty, or full of minors?
• 
  44

  What crime should elders report?

  by kramer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  so, i am trying to get my head around what the right position of elders should be when they come across crime is.. i think i get the issuess around clergy confidentiality - and how that might potentially be breached when they talk about it to other elders, let alone the police.. but if people are saying that elders - or clergy of another faith should report crime to the police when it is confessed to the, then where are the boundaries.. so if someone says they should report to police on a confessed example of child abuse, that's one thing.. how about reporting to police consensual sex between a 19year old and 15 year old - which is statutory rape in the uk.

  how about criminal fraud if they come across it.

  assault on a congregant?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  kramer

  I imagine that the question is how you deal with an impact on a minor - but what about the rape of an adult that the victim doesn't want to report, should the elders do that?
• 
  44

  What crime should elders report?

  by kramer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  so, i am trying to get my head around what the right position of elders should be when they come across crime is.. i think i get the issuess around clergy confidentiality - and how that might potentially be breached when they talk about it to other elders, let alone the police.. but if people are saying that elders - or clergy of another faith should report crime to the police when it is confessed to the, then where are the boundaries.. so if someone says they should report to police on a confessed example of child abuse, that's one thing.. how about reporting to police consensual sex between a 19year old and 15 year old - which is statutory rape in the uk.

  how about criminal fraud if they come across it.

  assault on a congregant?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  kramer

  Thanks Menrov, good input - I agree there is a link there with the way hospitals report

  how about then - an accusation in the congregation that somebody has pick pocketed someone else, after a prima facie examination on balance of probability, there is nothing to answer.. Do they report that to the police?

  Or one brother really beats up another brother - but the accused denies - do the Enders report the grevious bodily harm (which of course a hospital wouldn't)?
• 
  44

  What crime should elders report?

  by kramer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  so, i am trying to get my head around what the right position of elders should be when they come across crime is.. i think i get the issuess around clergy confidentiality - and how that might potentially be breached when they talk about it to other elders, let alone the police.. but if people are saying that elders - or clergy of another faith should report crime to the police when it is confessed to the, then where are the boundaries.. so if someone says they should report to police on a confessed example of child abuse, that's one thing.. how about reporting to police consensual sex between a 19year old and 15 year old - which is statutory rape in the uk.

  how about criminal fraud if they come across it.

  assault on a congregant?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  kramer

  So, I am trying to get my head around what the right position of elders should be when they come across crime is.

  I think I get the issuess around clergy confidentiality - and how that might potentially be breached when they talk about it to other elders, let alone the police.

  But if people are saying that elders - or clergy of another faith should report crime to the police when it is confessed to the, then where are the boundaries.

  So if someone says they should report to police on a confessed example of child abuse, that's one thing.

  How about reporting to police consensual sex between a 19year old and 15 year old - which is statutory rape in the UK

  How about criminal fraud if they come across it

  Assault on a congregant?

  Illegal immigrant status.

  I can totally understand why the elders should report confessions, but how about allegations, so not just allegations of child abuse, how about allegations of criminal fraud in the congregations, do they go with that too?

  Just trying to think through the issue, and input would be appreciated :)
• 
  17

  Transfer of Bank Balances and Kingdom Halls.

  by kramer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  two things related to ongoing comments regarding forgiving of loans / transfer of balances to the wtbs and the ownership of kingdom halls.

  firstly, i would argue that congregations don't care that bank balances have been transferred to the society.

  i would contend that people contribute to the preaching work, and that's it , so long as there is enough in the bank to maintain the hall with a reasonable reserve, then i doubt many would argue against it.

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  kramer

  @thewonderofyou - yes, and that's a model I would advocate to supplement the charity resources that are needed, with surplus profits being reinvested for the furtherance of the social objectives (in the UK 50% of distributable surpluses can be paid out in profits for private gain, so maybe the model doesn't fit exactly) . Trading profit on property in prime locations in NYC, or tertiary areas of London can fund charitable objectives in other parts of the world, then that great.