Posts by cobweb

85

Are you a Christian Who Accepts Evolution?

by cofty in

if you identify as a christian but you have accepted that the diversity of life - including humans - resulted from a process of biological evolution could you add your name please?.

just to be clear i am referring to the fact that our physical lineage could literally be traced back all the way to non-human species.. if you like maybe you could comment on why you see not conflict between evolution and your christian faith.. there is a tendency to conflate evolution with atheism.

it would be good to show that this is not the case..

cobweb

millions of christians manage to live with the tension between their faith-based beliefs and an acceptance of the facts of science.

People are able to hold two contradictory ideas in their head at the same time. We were JW's so we know this. It does cause cognitive dissonance though.

The way i dealt with evolution as a JW was to not think about evolution, thereby reducing the dissonance. I knew evolution was something science accepted and it was at odds with my belief so that meant I had to not be too curious about it, not place much value on it. This is normal for JW's and its quite rare for a JW to really have any scientific curiosity. When a David Attenborough nature documentary was shown, I would mentally filter out the frequent mentions of evolution. It was necessary and i did it subconsciously.

As you say, there are Christians who do manage to believe in evolution but I think either they must have to make some substantial compromises to their beliefs to make it hold together in their head, are willfully obtuse or ignorant about it, or they don't think too hard about evolution or science in general.

I don't quite understand how it is possible to value both Science and Christianity highly because it is such a compromised position. How is it possible to truly value Science, the scientific method and believe in evolution while also base ones central core belief on a bronze/iron age book full of supernatural stories which has no evidence whatsoever and clashes with a lot of scientific evidence that exists?

If one values the scientific method one will take an evidential approach to the world, recognise the cognitive biases and logical fallacies that humans are victim to and try to eliminate these in ones thinking. By recognising and seeking to eliminate these biases and logical fallacies, it follows that belief systems for which there is no evidence will not be valued.

But I know you weren't talking about value for the scientific method, just about Christians accepting evolution, so i have gone away from your point somewhat.

85

Are you a Christian Who Accepts Evolution?

by cofty in

if you identify as a christian but you have accepted that the diversity of life - including humans - resulted from a process of biological evolution could you add your name please?.

just to be clear i am referring to the fact that our physical lineage could literally be traced back all the way to non-human species.. if you like maybe you could comment on why you see not conflict between evolution and your christian faith.. there is a tendency to conflate evolution with atheism.

it would be good to show that this is not the case..

cobweb

I'm sure Cofty will be interested in the notion that all of his carefully constructed threads describing the evidence for the fact of evolution is just a faith in evolution no different from faith in a man in the sky.

85

Are you a Christian Who Accepts Evolution?

by cofty in

if you identify as a christian but you have accepted that the diversity of life - including humans - resulted from a process of biological evolution could you add your name please?.

just to be clear i am referring to the fact that our physical lineage could literally be traced back all the way to non-human species.. if you like maybe you could comment on why you see not conflict between evolution and your christian faith.. there is a tendency to conflate evolution with atheism.

it would be good to show that this is not the case..

cobweb

I'd definitely recommend the book Faith vs Fact: Why Science and Faith are Incompatible by Jerry Coyne if you haven't read it. I'd be interested to know what you thought.

85

Are you a Christian Who Accepts Evolution?

by cofty in

if you identify as a christian but you have accepted that the diversity of life - including humans - resulted from a process of biological evolution could you add your name please?.

just to be clear i am referring to the fact that our physical lineage could literally be traced back all the way to non-human species.. if you like maybe you could comment on why you see not conflict between evolution and your christian faith.. there is a tendency to conflate evolution with atheism.

it would be good to show that this is not the case..

cobweb

There is a tendency to conflate evolution with atheism. It would be good to show that this is not the case.

I don't really understand where you are going with this. Do you yourself believe in Christianity as well as Evolution?

I do see a conflict between having irrational beliefs such as in miracles and the resurrection of the dead and also a scientific approach which values evidence. If you do have the scientific approach, how can you then suspend it in the case of your chosen belief. It would be totally inconsistent.

11

ISIS update

by The Fall Guy in

it's reported that isis terrorists in syria are putting small video cameras on all of the vehicles they use, in order to use the footage as propaganda.

they're calling them daesh-cams..

cobweb

It was a funny joke though lol

Daesh-cams

18

Books are not dying out and this is not the reason for the WT turning to tablets

by slimboyfat in

there's a popular misconception that books in general are in terminal decline, that this is the reason the wt organisation has turned to tablets instead of print, and this in turn has created a financial crisis for the organisation which traditionally relied upon publishing books for income.

this is wrong on a number of levels.

firstly physical books are not in terminal decline, they are as popular as ever with consumers.

cobweb

Your right, although many assumed books were going to become redundant, they are still popular. People like the tactile feel of a book. There are parallels to the resurgence of vinyl.

I don't feel like there is a general misconception on this point though. When I asked my still in family about tablet use, one of the reasons they gave was that it saved the org money which they saw as a good thing as it could be used for other things. They also seemed to take pride in making use of modern technology, i suppose in the same way as Russell with his photodrama of creation and Rutherford with his phonographs.

11

ISIS update

by The Fall Guy in

it's reported that isis terrorists in syria are putting small video cameras on all of the vehicles they use, in order to use the footage as propaganda.

they're calling them daesh-cams..

cobweb

I wouldn't be optimistic. They may be being fought back in Syria and Iraq but they have a presence in a number of other countries around the world. The Philippines seems to be a new one. Also, as Cofty says, there will be a greater likelihood of terrorist attacks in the West.

6

book advice about the 'jw experience'

by cobweb in

jw
friends

i'm looking for a book recommendation about the jw experience for the audience of a non-jw friend.. here is a scenario: you have recently left the jw religion and have made a friend who has little knowledge about your old religion.

you would like them to understand more about you but at this point you feel awkward about explaining your religious background and don't feel confident that you can make them 'get it'.

you decide you would like to give them a book that will do the grunt work of explaining it all; one that will give them a deeper insight into your former world than you feel able to provide, which will additionally explain why it is that you are now in the position you are, friendless, unsure of many things and adrift at an age where most people have got their life sorted.. if someone were in this situation and needed such a book, what you recommend?.

cobweb

I'll check those out Wake me up. I think something with a narrative which has personal experience at the heart is going to work best for a non-JW, though i'm open to any suggestions. I agree about books such as Apocalypse Delayed and CoC. They're great books but neither seem quite suited to the purpose.

Thanks also for the suggestion dubstepped. I'll give your podcast a listen. I would like a book ideally though if something appropriate exists.

6

book advice about the 'jw experience'

by cobweb in

jw
friends

i'm looking for a book recommendation about the jw experience for the audience of a non-jw friend.. here is a scenario: you have recently left the jw religion and have made a friend who has little knowledge about your old religion.

you would like them to understand more about you but at this point you feel awkward about explaining your religious background and don't feel confident that you can make them 'get it'.

you decide you would like to give them a book that will do the grunt work of explaining it all; one that will give them a deeper insight into your former world than you feel able to provide, which will additionally explain why it is that you are now in the position you are, friendless, unsure of many things and adrift at an age where most people have got their life sorted.. if someone were in this situation and needed such a book, what you recommend?.

cobweb

I'm looking for a book recommendation about the JW experience for the audience of a non-JW friend.

Here is a scenario: You have recently left the JW religion and have made a friend who has little knowledge about your old religion. You would like them to understand more about you but at this point you feel awkward about explaining your religious background and don't feel confident that you can make them 'get it'. You decide you would like to give them a book that will do the grunt work of explaining it all; one that will give them a deeper insight into your former world than you feel able to provide, which will additionally explain why it is that you are now in the position you are, friendless, unsure of many things and adrift at an age where most people have got their life sorted.

If someone were in this situation and needed such a book, what you recommend?

44

I appreciate "our" free speech.

by The Rebel in

jw
friends

i had given serious consideration too leaving the board.

i rationalised my views on " muslims" we're not held by the majority so i should leave.

but this would have been wrong thinking, instead i should appreciate the platform i was given to debate with free speech.

cobweb

I take your points, but have you read the thread that sparked Rebel to think of leaving this site?

Rebel seems to me to be a very thoughtful sensitive and even handed type person. He makes the point that he has Muslim friends who he is close to and they all treat him well, and he is made to feel like he is wrong to think this - and he apologizes for offending people. I hate that he is made to feel that way for acting on a good positive emotion.

His personal narrative of Muslims being mostly nice people in his experience isn't allowed to stand. He is told that if they are nice then they aren't Real Muslims - they are something else, because so called Real Muslims are evil and deserve to be killed.

The whole 'they aren't real Muslims' if they are nice reminds me of the 'No True Scotsman fallacy:

Person A: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
Person B: "But my uncle Angus likes sugar with his porridge."
Person A: "Ah yes, but no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."

If a Muslim is a nice decent type person then they aren't true Muslim.

Muslim attackers are extremists. There are extremist Christians too. A week or so back there was a guy in Portland USA who went on a rant at two Muslim women sitting on a train. When two men went to defend these Muslim girls the harasser killed them with a knife. He yelled 'death to the enemies of America' in court. Yet somehow that isn't labeled as terrorism because he was Christian.

I condemn him as a Christian terrorist extremist but I don't condemn the entire Christian religion out of hand. I understand that not everyone applies Christianity the same way. Muslims are not afforded this luxury in people's minds it seems. For many here, if you are Muslim who have to advocate the very worst aspects of it no matter what or else you aren't a true Muslim.

I do not say Islam doesn't need to get its house in order. I accept that the number of extremists in Islam are greater than any other religion currently. But this aggression against the general Muslim population is ugly.

I listened to a story on the radio last week: After the London attack a Muslim nurse who had been working all night to help those who were injured, traveled back home and suffered disturbing verbal abuse. This is where bombast gets you.

I am not saying it is wrong to criticize Islam just like I would criticize the policies of JWs but there is a generality and a forcefulness to it which disturbs me. People like Rebel shouldn't be made to feel bad for defending his Muslim friends. That is a bell weather for where the conversation lies. If he or others try to be even a little fair minded on the subject they get shouted down and ridiculed. Just like they did on that previous thread where Landy was told to get lost essentially. I fully expect to be insulted and ridiculed for saying what I have said here. I don't intend to say anymore on the subject because I know how it will go and I don't enjoy argument for argument sake.