Posts by cobweb

15

pre 1981 Disassociation rules.

by Aussie Oz in

can anybody point me to actual written society instruction pre 1981, regarding not shunning da ones?.

i know they included shunning as of the wt sept 15 1981, but was before that time purely an unwritten practice or what?.

oz.

cobweb

What would happen though pre1981 if a person DA'ed and then started bad mouthing the organisation to family and friends? Would someone be DF for apostasy after DA'ing?

15

pre 1981 Disassociation rules.

by Aussie Oz in

can anybody point me to actual written society instruction pre 1981, regarding not shunning da ones?.

i know they included shunning as of the wt sept 15 1981, but was before that time purely an unwritten practice or what?.

oz.

I suppose if there really was no written policy on how to treat the disassociated pre-1981, that silence in itself shows they were not shunned and they could go about their business as a free person. The Ray Franz issue appears to have sparked them to make their first ever policy about it.

The reason i brought it up was wondering at what point in the history of the organisation did they become a cult. 1952 when DF came in perhaps. But they could still leave by DA & keep their family & friends until 1981. So i think 1981 may be the year when it properly bacame a cult.

15

pre 1981 Disassociation rules.

by Aussie Oz in

can anybody point me to actual written society instruction pre 1981, regarding not shunning da ones?.

i know they included shunning as of the wt sept 15 1981, but was before that time purely an unwritten practice or what?.

oz.

cobweb

I was just looking for the pre 1981 policy on how to treat those who wrote a letter of disassociation. I came across this thread but i can't see that the question is really answered. Was there never a watchtower that stated the policy? What about an old elders manual, is there a pre 1981 elders manual available anywhere?

40

Welcoming Our Latest JW Apologist JTrottigy

by pale.emperor in

i'd like to take this opportunity to warmly welcome our newest jw apologist jtrottigy.

.

he'll likely only be here for a few days like most jw defenders before he runs away when presented with his own doctrine.. so far he's already said some hilarious stuff, like "there's no such thing as nepotism in jehovah's organisation", "confidentiality is paramount to elders" and, my personal favourite "the overlapping generation is so simple to understand".. yh don't think i don't remember you from jwtalk..

cobweb

If current witnesses from JWTalk want to make this their home I think its great. Even if its not their initial purpose in coming here, hopefully they will learn something. It wouldn't be the first time.

35

Jehovah's Witnesses worship a pagan god derived from the ancient Canaanite civilization

by Finkelstein in

historians of ancient history along with bible scholars have found from where the ancient hebrews acquired their god yhwh .. el was the all powerful god of the canaanites which the hebrews converted mostly to a monotheist style of worship for themselves.. apparently their were ancient civilizations that predated the canaanites as well .. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnpaoappiqm.

cobweb

Thanks for your reply Earnest

I understand that when you talk to someone personally it can have a greater impact. That isn't always of best way of ascertaining the truth of things when you are not equipped to judge the correctness of what they say. This is often how people get roped into being witnesses.

Here is my question and I won't answer it, as I am not sure of the answer:

When I look up the website of the Trinity Evangelical Divinity School of which Lawson Younger belongs it says under the heading Statement of Faith, the following:

Trinity International University holds to the statement of faith of the Evangelical Free Church of America. The EFCA is an association of autonomous churches united around the following theological convictions:

God
We believe in one God, Creator of all things, holy, infinitely perfect, and eternally existing in a loving unity of three equally divine Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Having limitless knowledge and sovereign power, God has graciously purposed from eternity to redeem a people for Himself and to make all things new for His own glory.
The Bible
We believe that God has spoken in the Scriptures, both Old and New Testaments, through the words of human authors. As the verbally inspired Word of God, the Bible is without error in the original writings, the complete revelation of His will for salvation, and the ultimate authority by which every realm of human knowledge and endeavor should be judged. Therefore, it is to be believed in all that it teaches, obeyed in all that it requires, and trusted in all that it promises.
The Human Condition
We believe that God created Adam and Eve in His image, but they sinned when tempted by Satan. In union with Adam, human beings are sinners by nature and by choice, alienated from God, and under His wrath. Only through God’s saving work in Jesus Christ can we be rescued, reconciled and renewed.
Jesus Christ
We believe that Jesus Christ is God incarnate, fully God and fully man, one Person in two natures. Jesus—Israel’s promised Messiah—was conceived through the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He lived a sinless life, was crucified under Pontius Pilate, arose bodily from the dead, ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father as our High Priest and Advocate.
The Work of Christ
We believe that Jesus Christ, as our representative and substitute, shed His blood on the cross as the perfect, all-sufficient sacrifice for our sins. His atoning death and victorious resurrection constitute the only ground for salvation.
The Holy Spirit
We believe that the Holy Spirit, in all that He does, glorifies the Lord Jesus Christ. He convicts the world of its guilt. He regenerates sinners, and in Him they are baptized into union with Christ and adopted as heirs in the family of God. He also indwells, illuminates, guides, equips and empowers believers for Christ-like living and service.
The Church
We believe that the true church comprises all who have been justified by God’s grace through faith alone in Christ alone. They are united by the Holy Spirit in the body of Christ, of which He is the Head. The true church is manifest in local churches, whose membership should be composed only of believers. The Lord Jesus mandated two ordinances, baptism and the Lord’s Supper, which visibly and tangibly express the gospel. Though they are not the means of salvation, when celebrated by the church in genuine faith, these ordinances confirm and nourish the believer.
Christian Living
We believe that God’s justifying grace must not be separated from His sanctifying power and purpose. God commands us to love Him supremely and others sacrificially, and to live out our faith with care for one another, compassion toward the poor and justice for the oppressed. With God’s Word, the Spirit’s power, and fervent prayer in Christ’s name, we are to combat the spiritual forces of evil. In obedience to Christ’s commission, we are to make disciples among all people, always bearing witness to the gospel in word and deed.
Christ’s Return
We believe in the personal, bodily and premillennial return of our Lord Jesus Christ. The coming of Christ, at a time known only to God, demands constant expectancy and, as our blessed hope, motivates the believer to godly living, sacrificial service and energetic mission.
Response and Eternal Destiny
We believe that God commands everyone everywhere to believe the gospel by turning to Him in repentance and receiving the Lord Jesus Christ. We believe that God will raise the dead bodily and judge the world, assigning the unbeliever to condemnation and eternal conscious punishment and the believer to eternal blessedness and joy with the Lord in the new heaven and the new earth, to the praise of His glorious grace. Amen.

Do you think it is necessary for Lawson Younger to accept all of that? Would knowing that he had that basis on faith make you worried about his conclusions on the issue of the origin of God. Personally I would worry that if he had these points of faith as it starting point, they would influence his conclusions.

He has a book about the books of Judges and Ruth with the heading 'from biblical text to contemporary life'. The synopsis on google says:

The concept of judgment is at odds with today’s culture, which considers it a sin to suggest there is such a thing as sin. Perhaps that is partly because we have seen all too clearly the fallibility of those who judge. What many of us long for is not judgment but righteousness and deliverance from oppression. That is why the books of Judges and Ruth are so relevant today: Judges, because it reveals a God who employs very human deliverers but refuses to gloss over their sins and the consequences of those sins; and Ruth, because it demonstrates the far-reaching impact of a righteous character. Exploring the links between the Bible and our own times, Dr. K. Lawson Younger Jr. shares literary perspectives on the books of Judges and Ruth that reveal ageless truths for our twenty-first-century lives. Most Bible commentaries take us on a one-way trip from our world to the world of the Bible. But they leave us there, assuming that we can somehow make the return journey on our own. They focus on the original meaning of the passage but don’t discuss its contemporary application. The information they offer is valuable--but the job is only half done! The NIV Application Commentary Series helps bring both halves of the interpretive task together. This unique, award-winning series shows readers how to bring an ancient message into our postmodern context. It explains not only what the Bible meant but also how it speaks powerfully today.

This again seems to identify his underlying perspective of the inspired nature of the bible. In which case I do not know how he could even consider the possibility that YHWH developed out of Canaanite gods. Accepting his reliability on this issue might be like also accepting his authority on evolution when it is unlikely he will be unbiased about that. But, I am just guessing about his beliefs and how they might be affecting his conclusions. Its something to think about when gauging how much weight to place on his views.

33

Concerned Parent

by ConcernedParent in

jw
friends

i'm writing for some advice from former jws.

my family is christian, and my 15yo daughter is "dating" a jw boy.

(the quotes are because they aren't old enough to actually go out on dates... they consider themselves bf/gf and have hung out and gone places with each other, but always with parents, family, etc.

cobweb

Their is a new movie coming out called "Apostasy" with Emma Thompson as a family court judge (I think)

Lol Smiddy3. You kinda mashed up two Jw films into one there. The one with Emma Thomson as a judge is The Children Act. It is a bit weird that there are two out in the same year. I know Apostasy is the one you meant to recommend.

35

Jehovah's Witnesses worship a pagan god derived from the ancient Canaanite civilization

by Finkelstein in

historians of ancient history along with bible scholars have found from where the ancient hebrews acquired their god yhwh .. el was the all powerful god of the canaanites which the hebrews converted mostly to a monotheist style of worship for themselves.. apparently their were ancient civilizations that predated the canaanites as well .. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnpaoappiqm.

cobweb

Earnest, I can't begin to argue with you on the details of the subject. I haven't read the book you mention. I notice though that you say that Lawson Younger is an authority on the Aramaeans. I wonder why you particularly mention him on this matter when there are scholars who have more specialisation in the study of very early Canaanite civilization and the traces of Canaanite belief in biblical texts.

I saw that Lawson Younger for example has edited a book called Ugarit at Seventy Five and while specialists in this area such as Mark Smith discuss Uragitic texts and links to the bible head on and make a case consistent with Finklestein's OP, Younger's chapter in this book is called The Late Bronze Age / Iron Age Transition and the Origins of the Arameans. This suggests to me that he is not a specialist in this area. I am sure he is a smart guy but scholars tend to have very narrow and deep niches.

I would rather read a scholar who specialises in the niche at hand and is widely regarded as the goto person on a subject than someone who is more tangentially linked to it.

I openly admit that I cannot understand a lot of the detail of the scholarly argumentation. Much of it is above my head. These people have made it their life's work to look into it and they are very smart. But there is always a range of opinion in every area of study - people making cases using different lenses and they often disagree. There tends to be an overall consensus where scholars understanding centres, and then there are also people who hold minority theories out of line with the consensus. When I have no expertise in the field, I think it is safer - I feel I will be closer to the truth of a matter, if I go by the understanding of the people that most know what they are talking about - the majority consensus view - and read books by the scholars who are most respected in their niche.

You say

The view that the God of the Hebrews, of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, is related to the Canaanite god Elsimply because he is referred to as el or elohim is not accepted by all scholars. El is both a name and a description, but the Hebrew scriptures make clear that the name of the God (elohim) of the Hebrews is Jehovah.

I'm sure you are right that not all scholars accept this. But it is the consensus view by the people who have made it their most particular area of study and I'd rather go with that.

35

Jehovah's Witnesses worship a pagan god derived from the ancient Canaanite civilization

by Finkelstein in

historians of ancient history along with bible scholars have found from where the ancient hebrews acquired their god yhwh .. el was the all powerful god of the canaanites which the hebrews converted mostly to a monotheist style of worship for themselves.. apparently their were ancient civilizations that predated the canaanites as well .. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnpaoappiqm.

cobweb

It is eye opening stuff alright. I was fascinated when I read about the Ugaritic discoveries and how Yahweh evolved to take on attributes of El and Baal. Once you see how the Israelite God evolved, it really is the death knell of any belief in it. It is so foundational.

With a name like Finklestein it is obvious that this was key to you too. I don't normally buy physical books but two I did buy that I'd already read in electronic form were Who wrote the Bible by R.E. Friedman and The Bible Unearthed by Israel Finkelstein. I read that William Dever has some issues with Finkelstein on dating and I don't know the right or wrong of that but its a fascinating book nonetheless. Mark Smith is great on the Ugaritic stuff.

35

Jehovah's Witnesses worship a pagan god derived from the ancient Canaanite civilization

by Finkelstein in

historians of ancient history along with bible scholars have found from where the ancient hebrews acquired their god yhwh .. el was the all powerful god of the canaanites which the hebrews converted mostly to a monotheist style of worship for themselves.. apparently their were ancient civilizations that predated the canaanites as well .. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnpaoappiqm.

cobweb

Excellent info! Who is the woman giving the lecture? I would like to read more about this.

The woman's name is Christine Hayes an accomplished scholar at Yale Divinity school. I recommend the entire lecture series which is available on youtube. Its a valuable recourse.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfbxB0kKayCQ2Hf6JlCCDN6z47ySYxsCW

8

Wouldn't be great if it was trump that convinced Russia to stop persecuting the JW's

by nowwhat? in

after all those prayers and letters that didn't do squat.

and it was trump that helped the russian brothers.

then what would the jdub's say?

cobweb

JW's don't vote so I can't see he'd care.