Posts by cobweb

16

Children and Blood Transfusions

by Listener in

a hospital in qld.

australia sought orders to allow a blood transfusion on a minor if necessary.

this occurred on the 12th june 2015.the child was 7 years old and required a liver transplant within the next two or three years otherwise death was seen as inevitable.

cobweb

rebel8, thats pretty hard core thing for a kid to have to do. It does seem like they have eased up where children are concerned based on this thread.

What I'm about to say is the cult equivalent of, "Why, back in my day, I had to walk 10 miles to school in the snow, uphill both ways."

There is something to that. The same doctrine is still there but the emphasis can change and lose its force, so the younger generation has little awareness of how it was. Like how although 1914 is still a thing, young jw's don't really get what a big deal it was for those in the 80's say.

When I was a young kid in the 70's my nan used to go on about how bad aluminium cookware was and I didn't know what the hell she was on about.

16

Children and Blood Transfusions

by Listener in

a hospital in qld.

australia sought orders to allow a blood transfusion on a minor if necessary.

this occurred on the 12th june 2015.the child was 7 years old and required a liver transplant within the next two or three years otherwise death was seen as inevitable.

cobweb

Toronto’s Sick Kids... now will go to “all lengths” to find alternatives to transfusing blood when Jehovah’s Witnesses voice their opposition, said Rebecca Bruni, a bioethicist at the hospital. It also asks parents to sign a letter of understanding — drafted with the help of one of the church’s hospital liaison committees — that says the institution recognizes their religious objections and will try to avoid transfusions if at all possible. The letter is not a consent form, but adds that where the child is at imminent risk of serious harm or death, medical staff will press ahead with the transfusion.

Its a pragmatic approach.

16

Children and Blood Transfusions

by Listener in

a hospital in qld.

australia sought orders to allow a blood transfusion on a minor if necessary.

this occurred on the 12th june 2015.the child was 7 years old and required a liver transplant within the next two or three years otherwise death was seen as inevitable.

cobweb

Interesting point. In the Convention video it showed Sergai defying the government by practicing his faith in a country where it was banned. He went to prison for it. The message in that situation is obey the GB in the face of the State no matter what happens.

But the all out resistance approach is not applied to stopping their children being forced to have blood. It may not be thoroughly effective to try to withdraw their child from hospital but they don't attempt it.

It is a double standard but its easy to see why it is the case. It would be so damaging to them to do this. It would not just look awful in terms of public perception, but it would stop them getting tax exemption - the government would clamp right down on them in a big way. Plus, I am not sure many JW parents in that situation would go along with it.

I recently read a book by Ian McEwan called The Children's Act which has an English judge dealing with a case of an underage boy who refuses a blood transfusion. The boy is nearly 18 and the judge has to make a determination as to whether to step in or not. She ends up forcing the child to have a transfusion and he survives but the boy comes to see his parent's true feelings about the blood policy. He saw that as much as his mother and father were outwardly trying to stop him having a transfusion, they were relieved when the issue was taken out of their hands and he was saved. It made him see through the religion.

I think that is probably quite an accurate representation of how things stand when push comes to shove for many JW parents. They don't want to fight too hard - as long as they make some effort its enough - they are more than likely relieved when the Court takes charge and they can maintain their clean conscience while their child can get to stay alive. And they are relieved that the Org doesn't talk about breaking the law to try to keep it from happening.

4

I have been doing some research and JWS are the true religion :0D

by Deltawave in

i apologise for the sarcastic title, lol.

so anyways i have been doing some research over the years and it would seem that evidence can be gathered to support any claim a person can make.

evolutionists see evidence of evolution, creationists see evidence of creation and each religion can find an excuse to call itself the true religion.

cobweb

I think that what the OP has expressed is a stage that many leaving JWs go through. Letting go of lifelong belief in 'THE Truth' can make one reticent and cautious about all claims of truth. It can be quite mentally peaceful for a while to let go and not worry about it - to let all the arguing go on about you and be accepting of others points of view without taking sides.

This isn't necessarily where the OP will end up. The religion does not give people the ability to develop critical thinking in evaluating knowledge. It would be counterproductive to do so as those who develop critical thinking at university apply it to the religion and see it for what it is. My advice would be to try to access information on critical thinking, and develop your ability to assess whether things are likely to be true, as well as perhaps reading a primer on evolution. Jerry Coyne is very good.

4

I have been doing some research and JWS are the true religion :0D

by Deltawave in

i apologise for the sarcastic title, lol.

so anyways i have been doing some research over the years and it would seem that evidence can be gathered to support any claim a person can make.

evolutionists see evidence of evolution, creationists see evidence of creation and each religion can find an excuse to call itself the true religion.

cobweb

I don't think you should equate evidence for evolution with 'evidence' for creation or gods. Its apples and oranges. People's belief in religion is based on faith not evidence. I agree with you that arguing about articles of faith is mostly pointless, although you can try to prove or disprove certain things based on archeology etc, but no true believer would care. Religion does touch upon provable scientific knowlege however, such as that we were created a few thousand years ago. This is not true. Evolution is a scientific fact. Again religious people usually won't care and ignore or adjust to accommodate. But its true nonetheless.

203

My Explanation of Why They Got it Wrong About Blood Using Only the NWT

by cofty in

10 " any israelite or any alien living among them who eats any bloodi will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from his people.

12 therefore i say to the israelites, "none of you may eat blood, nor may an alien living among you eat blood.

15 'anyone, whether native-born or alien, who eats anything found dead or torn by wild animals must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be ceremonially unclean till evening; then he will be clean.

cobweb

I read this post a while back but the points made resurfaced in my mind. It is an excellent post.

The point about the eating of dead animals being treated differently to that of live ones under the old law - that dead animals could not be drained of blood - yet eating them caused only temporary ritual uncleanness - its such a logical argument for blood transfusions not being wrong, particularly as they save life which is what blood is supposed to represent - and I have never heard it expressed before. I suppose the logic of it would not make a fundamental difference to a JW mind but it does make such good sense to anyone who is thinking for themselves.

80

Major Doctrinal Changes Must Be On The Way

by notsurewheretogo in

the statement in the article "who is leading gods people today?

" in the feb 17th study edition of the wt is very interesting.. it states: ""the g.b.

is neither inspired nor infallible" ..we can err .in doctrinal matters....".

cobweb

I agree that it breaks new ground in how explicit they are being. But i think one could always imply from statements qouted above like:

this “faithful and discreet slave” was never inspired, never perfect.”

'inspired' relates to doctrine not behaviour and 'never perfect' surely means to have erred.

But they are saying it very clearly here and it is certainly striking.

80

Major Doctrinal Changes Must Be On The Way

by notsurewheretogo in

the statement in the article "who is leading gods people today?

" in the feb 17th study edition of the wt is very interesting.. it states: ""the g.b.

is neither inspired nor infallible" ..we can err .in doctrinal matters....".

cobweb

I think if you went to that watchtower study you would be majorly disappointed by the reaction. There won't be one.

I am not convinced this is even a change. As far back as I remember they have always held two contradictory positions.

For the most part they uphold the line that they are jehovah channel, spirit directed mouthpiece. This is their position of strength.

However when it suits their purposes -when they make a mistake about prophecy they roll over on their back and use the 'we are imperfect men' line. I can't remember the exact wording of their 1975 non apology but wasn't that what they said? They don't tend to use this defence often as it takes away their power but it is in their historical arsenal.

Witnesses are able to accept both positions and not recognise the contradiction.

As for why they are using this 'we are just imperfect humans' argument now, I agree, I can't see a reason for it other than to lay the groundwork for changes in the future. This is like an apology for something that they haven't announced yet.

16

The WTBTS' "Golden Calf"

by The Searcher in

in recent months i have personally experienced 3 times how jehovah's witnesses' thinking and ad hominem attacks are being molded by their masters in the wtbts.. 1) j.w.

family members have stated that i am no longer part of the family because i say "negative things" about the org.. 2) my closest friend in my former congregation complained several weeks ago that i was "finding fault" with the org every time we had a conversation.

nothing from him since.. 3) when reverse witnessing to an elder at a trolley recently, he accused me of "criticizing the organization.".

cobweb

WT February 2017 par.12, p.26 - "The Governing Body is neither inspired nor infallible. Therefore, it can err in doctrinal matters or in organizational direction."

...and yet, you still have to go along with everything they say as though they are.

21

Is Christianity contingent on belief in a talking snake?

by cobweb in

jw
friends

this is a question mainly for those who are christian as i myself am not:.

to what extent is christianity contingent on a belief in the book of genesis.

i know there are some christians who accept that the creation story is a myth, and maybe the adam and eve story too.

cobweb

Some interesting points, thank you. Yes I agree that a lot of the Christians jettison what they disagree with and stick with the central tenant that they find most emotionally compulsive - that of the general notion of Jesus life and sacrifice, resurrection etc. I think many are willing to cut the arms and legs off their belief system as long as the beating heart of Jesus can be retained. In that way Christianity is resistant to being killed through appeals to literal thinking and rational argument. But for someone who does come from a literal understanding of the Bible, like Jehovah's Witnesses, I wonder if a loss of belief in Adam and Eve etc would be more destructive to their overall faith.

Suppose the Adam and Eve story was always known to be a metaphor, such that nobody thought to specify it when the story was told orally, as it was for hundreds of years before it was recorded in writing. Maybe the names Adam and Eve carry some connotation such that hearers always understood them to be archetypes, but that connotation has been lost to history.

I can kind of buy that. I have been reading that it is the Greeks who gave us a more logical rational approach but in fact the Israelite had no problem with contradiction - so perhaps they really didn't care whether Adam and Eve and the serpent were real. I would point out though for what its worth that Luke chapter 3 does list a chronology that goes from Adam to Jesus.