Flipper:
Hassan is actually another cult leader. And you are in his cult. He uses questionable methods. Quotes questionable research for support. He seldom responds to criticism. He charges exhorbitant fees. I can enlarge and shape the definition of "cult" in any direction I choose. That's what you are doing. At the very least he is a generator of pseudoscience and you are a distributor.
I just want to warn people here that Hassan is f.o.s.
Flipper:
You said: " This reminds me of how the WT society has two versions of the WT magazine. One soft pedal version they place with people in the door to door service which has flowery information , yet a harder hitting WT which inflicts disciplinary requirements on active JW's who are expected to conform."
You are aware that the "harder hitting" version is available to the public on the internet.
OODAD:
All paper and pencil self-report tests are quite inaccurate because people are very poor judges of their own personalities.
But the Myers-Briggs is extremely flawed in its construction.
If you want to know the specific ways MBTI fails read this http://www.indiana.edu/~jobtalk/Articles/develop/mbti.pdf
You said "Nevertheless, the fact that cult members remember themselves as being different prior to their cult indoctrination does prove the effects of the cult involvement on their personality even if it does not accurately reflect what those actual changes are."
That statment doesn't prove anything "if it does not accurately reflect what those actual changes are."
One reason people join cults, go into therapy, read Self-Help books and change religions is because they are not happy with themselves and they want to change in some way. Alcoholics Annonymous also comes to mind as an example.
People tend to introject the leaders (exemplars) in their organizations. Some people are more vulnerable to this process than others. These individuals sometimes need quite a bit of therapy just to gain an identity separate from a parent they feared or respected.
Hassan is correct in referring to this as a "social influence" rather than brain-washing.
Once again I don't see any difference between JW's and the crazy practices of almost all religions.
Circumcision - belief that you must cut off the foreskin because God requires that. (Jews and Muslims)
Dietary restriction - Don't eat pig.(Jews and Muslims) Don't eat meat. (Hindus)
Smoking Marijuanna - Rastafarians
Catechetical Indoctrination - Just about all religions
Belief that you are dirty and in need of ceremonial cleansing. (Baptism)
Eucharist - Eating Jesus
Prohibition for preists to marry.
All of this requires surrendering your reason to be accepted as a member in good standing.
i really do not understand how any can be athiests from thinking real hard about it.
how can you think everything on this earth just happened?.
from my understanding, to be athiest, this is pretty much how it goes.
How can you think everything on this earth just happened?
How can you think that God always existed?
Everything didn't "just" happen.
Everything happened very slowly over at least a billion years.
Flipper:
"Oh well, I'll just agree to disagree with your views. You are welcome to them . Thanks for contributing to the thread."
The statement "agree to disagree" is an example of the FALSE COMPROMISE FALLACY
It is a way to end discussion not further it.
Flipper:
"Oh well, I'll just agree to disagree with your views. You are welcome to them . Thanks for contributing to the thread."
The statement "agree to disagree" is an example of the FALSE COMPROMISE FALLACY
It is a way to end discussion not further it.
Flipper,
One more thing. I have read close to 2000 books on psychology. The experiment that Hassan describes using the MBTI is seriously flawed.
The study referred to was never published in a peer reviewed journal.
If you are interested in some of the problems with that research check out this blog:
"Perhaps YOU need to research psychology a bit."
Flipper:
This is not a formal paper for publishing. I'm entitled to use rhetoric (persuasive language) just like you have done.
Notice I didn't say that independent people are "lonely" I said they would be "very alone".
I also said 'MAYBE even schizophenic" You are implying I was making a STRONG association between independence and schizophrenia.
I accept responsibility for not being explicit about where these "independent" people are on the continuum of dependent-independent.
Religions have historically meddled in people's private lives. Those religions that hold to the older traditions do things that we now consider bad.
Some religions with millions of adherents still kill heretics. The middle east is the original "bible belt".
Extreme practices like shunning are valuable. It should be a red flag to people thinking about joining. Nature gives warning colors to potentially poisonous plants. A rattle snake makes its distinctive rattle when you get too close.
Do you want to know what its like to be an ugly unathletic nerd? Society shuns all the time. The biggest problem with JW's is that they are wrong.
If they were right I would gladly do anything they asked if it really meant I could live forever. If Muslim's were really "right" and Allah really rewarded you with some large harem if you blow yourself up in a cafe then that might be a decent choice.
I hope you understand my illustration. Or are you going to jump to the conclusion that I'm advocating suicide bombing.
Cool it. My point was that JW's like all religions are left-overs from a different time. They aren't unique. At least they don't still carry on the ritual of sexual mutilation (circumcision).
The Bible Said it first: Bad associations spoil useful habits.
It has been shown that parents have little influence on their children. They listen to their peers.
I don't see anything unique about Watchtower control.
All corporations have you sign non-disclosure forms. Organizations demand loyalty however they define it. Every group has a line that you can't cross.
If you are truly independent most likely you are very alone maybe even schizophrenic.
The real job is learning how to identify truth. That's where science can help.
september 1st, 2012, can be marked down in the theocratic calendar as the day the watchtower bible and tract society marched shamelessly into the 21st century.
on that day, jw.org, official website of jehovah's witnesses, went live, and with one strike the organisation put a match to its past.. .
seek out the society's online library, its searchable database of publications, and you will soon see that it has only made available literature published since the year 2000. inclusion of the generic work, insight on the scriptures, is of no consequence.
Maybe they can't afford to host a couple terrabytes.
