Posts by Martini

92

Reflections

by Frenchy in

jw
friends

im starting a new thread because its time i left the bergman discussion.

i would like to address some comments made by ahhah, however, comments which have given me reason to look deep into myself.. even then, i wonder how objective a person could ever be after having had part of their life taken from them by a cult association.

on the other hand, who else (other than an ex-jw) would ever care enough to work as tirelessly as he seems to have in attempting to document the potential harm of this religion (biased as it may be).

Martini

Greetings,

Path;
"Keep in mind if God "could accept and work with such wayward people today as He did in the past", Then could he not really accept everyone today? "

Yes, God could, however if He decides he only wants this group..well God gets-what God wants!

Over at H2O many former witnesses speak as though anything God does must make perfect sense.

Why does everything about God's will and purposes have to make perfect sense? Do all things have to be logical for them to be of Divine origin?

Our very existence is illogical! From the moment we come to life in this world many things don't make logical sense. The simple fact that no human has conclusive knowledge of where we came from or where we are going is illogical to me,don't you think? This knowledge should be fundamental to our very being.

So it goes with religion I think. If Jehovah exists and this is the way acceptable to Him, who are we to argue? I personally cannot please God if pleasing Him means following the WTS, but then again who am I to dispute with God? Each one will reap the consequences of his/her individual decisions.

Frenchy;

"Does it not seem reasonable that the one making the claim of being God’s representative should be able to provide unshakable credentials to that fact? Where are those credentials? "

But Frenchy even if there were, one must be willing to accept them as they are. With God we cannot pick and choose, can we? You would expect God's words to be reasonable to all but in the end God will have His way, whether people like it or not. If God has chosen that the Watchtower is His way, are you prepared to accept?

Catch you later on your new thread.
Martini

92

Reflections

by Frenchy in

jw
friends

im starting a new thread because its time i left the bergman discussion.

i would like to address some comments made by ahhah, however, comments which have given me reason to look deep into myself.. even then, i wonder how objective a person could ever be after having had part of their life taken from them by a cult association.

on the other hand, who else (other than an ex-jw) would ever care enough to work as tirelessly as he seems to have in attempting to document the potential harm of this religion (biased as it may be).

Martini

Hi,

Back to topic...
Frenchy I need to ask you... Is it true that the Israelites were historically Jehovah's chosen people?
Also were they not God's dedicated nation up until after they impaled the Christ? Jesus himself said that they were in a covenant position but that the kingdom was soon to be taken from them. Mt 23:38;21:43

If the above is truth, how is it or better asked what kind of God gives His Name and support to a people who had deviated so atrociously from His ways and for so long? The Israelites make the WTS with all it's "warts" look like saints.

OR are we to deduce from this that Jehovah is the kind of God that could accept and work with such wayward people today as He did in the past?

Does this make any sense to you,as to where I want to go with this thought?

Later,
Martini.

92

Reflections

by Frenchy in

jw
friends

im starting a new thread because its time i left the bergman discussion.

i would like to address some comments made by ahhah, however, comments which have given me reason to look deep into myself.. even then, i wonder how objective a person could ever be after having had part of their life taken from them by a cult association.

on the other hand, who else (other than an ex-jw) would ever care enough to work as tirelessly as he seems to have in attempting to document the potential harm of this religion (biased as it may be).

Martini

Greetings all,
Thank you very much for your compassionate comments everyone:)

Waiting Said;
Please keep in mind, if a teenager, they become different people about every 6 months for as many years.

Thanks for the reminder I sure am counting on this fact of life. She is 13 going on sixteen, so the odds of bridging the gap is good,whew!

Path;
...with the situation they face today in the "truth" they are headed for difficulty as one by one their friends leave.

I don't doubt this, unless "this system" comes to an end 'soon' which I doubt!:)

Circare,AhHah,Frenchy I'm saddend to hear how many are affected by this disgraceful shunning policy. It's similar to a hostage taking!Unless we can meet their terms and conditions our own family members are taken hostage by the WTS. Who would of thought we would become victims of our own device.

Anyway I'm glad I could get some good advice from you guys so I could cushion the blow.

Later,
Martini.

92

Reflections

by Frenchy in

jw
friends

im starting a new thread because its time i left the bergman discussion.

i would like to address some comments made by ahhah, however, comments which have given me reason to look deep into myself.. even then, i wonder how objective a person could ever be after having had part of their life taken from them by a cult association.

on the other hand, who else (other than an ex-jw) would ever care enough to work as tirelessly as he seems to have in attempting to document the potential harm of this religion (biased as it may be).

Martini

Greetings,
In my greetings I do not name each of you personally but rest assured I do read everyones posts and value each one.

This thread is getting too deep for my limited computer access time.

From my perspective each one of us is on the same boat, just at different locations, as we walk about the confined perimeter of this 'boat' we are walking in and out of the same places just at different times, sometimes we bump into eachother "in mind" at other times we seem to be at opposite ends, always on the same boat!

All this to say that we are all experiencing the same sights and sounds of exiting the GREAT ILLUSION.

PLEASE understand when I speak of 'apostate material' I do not mean any disrespect to anyone. According to status quo I myself may very well be an 'apostate'.

At present I am really hurting. My teenage daughter is also hurt and confused as to "why daddy has changed".She continues to practice. I reassure her it has nothing to do with her.I wish I could tell her about the lies but I cannot go there at present she is not ready. In the meantime to her I'm looking like a "Judas". GrandMa has alot to do with this.

Perhaps for the above said reason I wonder if this religion couldn't be salvaged somehow. That or find God literally, face to face, just so I could redeem myself with my loved ones.

Anyway I read what you kind people are saying and yes I too wish I could spend a pleasant day with anyone of you. This way we could hear in the tone of voices that indeed we are not in disagreement.

I would like to comment to some of you personally, please grant me to do so at my earliest convenience. Thanks,

Martini

Edited by - Martini on 12 November 2000 10:23:27

92

Reflections

by Frenchy in

jw
friends

im starting a new thread because its time i left the bergman discussion.

i would like to address some comments made by ahhah, however, comments which have given me reason to look deep into myself.. even then, i wonder how objective a person could ever be after having had part of their life taken from them by a cult association.

on the other hand, who else (other than an ex-jw) would ever care enough to work as tirelessly as he seems to have in attempting to document the potential harm of this religion (biased as it may be).

Martini

Greetings friends one and all,

There is so much to say where, do I start. I'd like to believe that this board is different than say H2O in that those posting here still have a soft spot for "Jehovah's Witnesses" the religion past and present.Many points of arguement against the WTS are clearly borrowed from former JW's or known 'apostates' if you will. It would be nice if we could get a seperate take on what's wrong or right in our religion.( I believe this is Frenchy's contention.)Let's see if we could reason without the use of 'apostate material'.

I have heard many of those arguements because I have read much of that material available on the Net. Even though I feel there are strong arguements somehow collectively they fall short of offering 'good news'. Sure they pick the WTS to pieces but in the end your left with an empty bag. Basically you end up with no faith, no religion, no god, no good news for a better existence. Don't misunderstand, if this life is all there is I'd like to know so I could make the best of it... so far though apart from the 'good news' according to the WT, this life does seems to be all there is!

My reflections on this thread lead me to ask this question:
If it were possible to sift out all that is of human origin with the JW faith do you think that we all could be satisfied with what would be left over?

Thanks for any replies,
Martini.

8

Who's decision is it to want 'heaven'

by Simon in

jw
friends

just a thought.... the 144,000 with the heavenly hope were sealed in 1935 (ok, they don't push the idea openly but it's still the party line).. everyone else has an earthly hope.. just because you have a heavenly hope doesn't mean that you can't 'fall away'.

why, look at that 'no good' ray franz.... so, someone has to take their place.. now, does god make someone want a heavenly hope or does he pick someone who wanted to have a heavenly hope but was going to be disappointed.. who's choice is it...do individuals have free will over what they want.

Martini

Hi Simon,

Brother all I know is "Everyone wants to get to heaven BUT no one wants to die!!!"

Simon things are looking like many more than just 144K are actually heaven bound... according to those 'no good' apostates! Umm I forget though if that includes only 'born again' Christians excluding all 'unborn' Christians I suppose, billions who died before Christ, and all non Christians.

Still care to discuss this issue?

Martini.

**************************************

Oops! My apologies Simon, please neglect my cruel humor above it appears misplaced seeing as how your topic is receiving serious consideration.
As far as I'm concerned after learning the flaws in the Watchtower doctrine of a literal 144,000 going to heaven, I'm somewhat at a loss as to what to believe anymore! I suppose my former Catholic belief that all good people go to heaven sounds appealing once again.
So what makes a person 'good' thus worthy of heaven?
Well I'm guessing that on passing away, if those living could agree that you were a 'good' person and perhaps say so openly,then based on the testimony of two or more people I suppose that would qualify you to get to heaven.

Hey on this basis most of Jehovah's Witnesses have a pretty good chance! What do you think?

Martini.

Edited by - Martini on 7 November 2000 18:35:44

4

Defining what or who the "Society" re...

by Pathofthorns in

jw
friends

a post on h20 raised interesting questions regarding "the society", and one of the responses i found particularly interesting.. i don't think many witnesses actually understand what or who exactly the "society" is, they just know its some authority that they must listen to, on par with god.

when people reply that it is simply the legal entity used by jehovah's witnesses to further the word of god, the average witness knows there is much more to this in reality.. [url] http://www.cyberpass.net/~h2o/wwwboard/messages/295948.html[/url].

[url] http://www.cyberpass.net/~h2o/wwwboard/messages/295960.html[/url].

Martini

Greetings Path,

I suppose saying 'the Society' is for JW's like an American
saying 'the WhiteHouse,Washington or Capitol Hill says...' or Canadians saying 'Ottawa,Parliment etc says'...In other words regardless of who is in power,any decision, so long as it officially comes from 'the Society' is considered the final word on the matter tantamount to Jehovah himself made the pronouncement.

Of course now you and I know 'the Society' is the little man behind the curtain as in "the Wizard of Oz".:)

Martini.

92

Reflections

by Frenchy in

jw
friends

im starting a new thread because its time i left the bergman discussion.

i would like to address some comments made by ahhah, however, comments which have given me reason to look deep into myself.. even then, i wonder how objective a person could ever be after having had part of their life taken from them by a cult association.

on the other hand, who else (other than an ex-jw) would ever care enough to work as tirelessly as he seems to have in attempting to document the potential harm of this religion (biased as it may be).

Martini

Hi Frenchy and friends,

You said:

Whatever can be said about the WTS one will have to admit that it is unlike anything else he has experienced. Do they have ‘the truth’ and have just mismanaged it? Why were the promises so real to us? Why do some of us still long for those things once hoped for? Is there someone else out there that has the truth? Will there ever be?

Comments?

I believe each one has valid reasons for their anger, disappointment or frustration, how ever you want to call in as much as each ones circumstances are similar and shared by hundreds if not thousands of others in much the same way.

Frenchy your questions above indicate to me that many of us who are at the edge have these perplexing, nagging after thoughts. I suppose that our WTS experience is truly more complex than we ever bargained for.I maintain that only with the passing of time, where the obvious cannot be denied (FDS fraud and errors) , will this religion go mainstream and finally release everyone from it's influence.

I agree with you though that in the meantime I too scratch my head at times and wonder what is making the other 99.99% of my close associates continue in "the truth" despite the growing evidence that there are BIG problems within this Organization. They will say something like "oh, just take the positive and leave the negative".

The problem I have is that they appear quite contented. Most are not your model "WT drone" as they once were, but they hold firmly to the belief that they are serving Jehovah and that their love for him is what they cherish most in life. Basically they feel this Organization keeps them focused on their dedication to live not for self but for GOD. Many could find fault with this position, all I know is these people do appear to be doing something for God, I honestly cannot say so much for myself anymore.

Got to go, but I'll be back,
Martini.

20

H20 Never Knew what Hit Them

by HAL in

jw
friends

first off, we want to thank everyone who emailed us in response to our last post.

yes, your concerns are being addressed, and what went on at the annual meeting was only the first step.. h2o and many similar sites were thrown in disarray as they were forced to admit that they were blindsided by the reorganization announcement.. so much for their claims of higher ups in the reform movement, funneling them inside information.

the truth is that reform consists of isolated embittered individuals with an ax to grind.

Martini

Hello HAL,

I'm sorry to percieve from your post that your reasoning is again traped in a closed loop. You have come full circle once more!As you try to rationalize all things old why must you let your mind come back to square one? There can be no personal fulfillment and happiness staying in the WT rat ring, deep down you know that. It's OVER the fraud we have discovered about watchtowerland is REAL. So let's move on and do the things that make life worth living and sharing.

Peace2U,
Martini

63

Thank You Ray Franz.

by Martini in

jw
friends

hello friends,.

in a thread over at witnesses.net entitled "society bracing for law suits" fellow jw's are taking swipes at ray franz.

not too long ago, while i was still under the wt spell i also would have similarily spoken abusively of ray.

Martini

Hello Friends,

In a thread over at witnesses.net entitled "Society bracing for law suits" fellow JW's are taking swipes at Ray Franz. Not too long ago, while I was still under the WT spell I also would have similarily spoken abusively of Ray. However since I have read for myself his book 'Crisis of Conscience' I realise taht "I" like most everyone else in the Organization is in TOTAL ignorance of his plight with the GB and Brooklyn Bethel back 20 years ago. I was a victim of rumors and gossip about Ray, much as are the poor brothers over at wit.net!

To those lurking from wit.net;

Make no mistake to read that book is to face up to the reality that the WTS is not what we have made it to be. It is a brutal experience to come to terms with but sooner or later we will ALL have to honestly examine our unquestioning security and reliance on the WT Organization and their claim to be God's sole channel on earth.

The idea is unthinkable and/or disturbing to you at present but like I said some have faced this sooner others will later, it's all in the timing,
one day you too will have to face the TRUTH.