Posts by botchtowersociety

12

insidious infiltrate!

by chickpea in

jw
friends

i dont know how many times i have thought i had purged my life.

of all the wts litter-ature, only to find that crap still taking up room.

in storage... .

botchtowersociety

It would be convenient if they made the magazines out of softer paper. The publications don't yet live up to their ideal purpose.

Maybe I'm just a cheap asshole!

85

How many gods are there?

by jgnat in

christianity was birthed in a polytheistic world, inheriting from jewish roots the concept of one g-d. now, instead of one god for israel, we are offered one god for the whole world.

caesar (mortal men) was declared a god.

gods had powers beyond ordinary men, could grant requests, and demanded sacrifice and worship.

"God" is a very loaded term, I think. People speak of beings with greater than human powers or wisdom as being god like. From a Christian perspective, the only thing appropriate to worship is the greatest thing of all, the one God, and nothing lesser.

144

1st Cen. Christianity - One Organization

by StandFirm in

here is the promised debate.

the subject is whether or not god has an organization.

i'll start things simply:.

botchtowersociety

Thank you, botchtowersociety.

I doubt I am mentioning something you don't already know about. You seem to be a very smart lady.

I don't think I can go along with an unbroken line of truth from Peter to today.

There is an unbroken line of episcopal lineage in the various Catholic and Orthodox churches, and some others, like the Assyrians. The teachings received from Jesus and the Apostles has been explained in different ways at different times and places by different individuals. When it became necessary to resolve disagreements, there were general councils to clear matters that became problematic, like the one at Acts 15. Early Christians didn't even have a canon. The church evolved, like a baby growing up, but the baby and the adult are the same person.

Like you said:

Which makes sense when we think about how people behave in budding institutions. Codificaton and standards come later.

You also said:

The early fragmentary evidence shows us that practice and belief was highly varied and contentious.

This does not mean that there was not an institutional continuity or succession through an episcopal lineage. Historically, there was. Even in time of the earliest Christian writings, there was an episcopal ecclesiastical system in place, even if it was primitive. It was not a controversy.

By the way, a major criticism of some of the more varied and contentious groups was that they were not vested with any sort of apostolic authority, that they were teaching something other than what was "handed down from the Apostles". Iranaeus uses this argument in the 2nd century in his work, "Against Heresies." Tertullian also uses the lack of episcopal lineage as an argument in his own writings in the 2nd C. This is well before AD 400.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/irenaeus.html

Authority was transferred by ordination. We see Paul mention this in the context of Timothy. We also see it when the Apostles ordained Matthias to replace Judas Iscariot.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%201:12-23&version=NIV

Even Paul went to the Apostles to have his position "ratified".

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%202:1-2&version=NIV

15

US Treasury to tap pensions to help fund the government

by diamondiiz in

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/treasury-to-tap-pensions-to-help-fund-government/2011/05/15/af2fqk4g_story.html?hpid=z1.

i guess they will begin with taking public's savings before they touch the big crooked banker's retirement fund - what a surprise that is..

botchtowersociety

US Treasury to tap pensions to help fund the government

This is just a small start. On the path we are following, private pensions and retirement accounts will be next.

You would be better off starting your own retirement fund in your own name.

401Ks and IRAs are not safe from wholesale seizure/nationalization. This happened in Argentina.

144

1st Cen. Christianity - One Organization

by StandFirm in

here is the promised debate.

the subject is whether or not god has an organization.

i'll start things simply:.

botchtowersociety

How ancient? Before or after about, say, 400 AD?

There is a great deal of material, outside the New Testament, before that date. I would probably start with the Clement's Epistle to the Corinthians as well as the writings of St. Ignatius. Both are dated to the late 1st Century and Early 2nd. Iranaeus is another good early source, and his writings date to the late 2nd Century.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/

144

1st Cen. Christianity - One Organization

by StandFirm in

here is the promised debate.

the subject is whether or not god has an organization.

i'll start things simply:.

botchtowersociety

JGnat.

Individual bishops in the apostolic churches have held differing opinions on various matters. This was true in the early centuries, and continues to be true today. If all bishops held the same opinions, there would never have been need for the ecumenical councils and synods (which were convened when these differences threatened unity).

This does not change the fact that, institutionally, these churches have apostolic lineage. This is historical. There is an unbroken lineage of bishops going back to apostolic times in these churches. The lineages are attested to in many ancient writings.

Respectfully, TTWSYF, quoting the bible as a definitive source only works if the reader believes it was written by God and protected by God through the ages from corruption.

The Bible can be treated as a historical reference to the early church, whether or not one believes it is written or protected by God. We can, and do, use many other ancient histories.

The fact that this concil is mentioned as soemthing "beyond the norm" shows that it was NOT typical and that ther eis no other record of anythin happening like this again.

PSac.

There are many records of councils, but these are from a period of history after Acts.

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