StandFirm

Joined

• started 6 topics
• posted 45 times   see topics posted on
• send a message

Posts by StandFirm

• 
  25

  Survey - Are DF'ed ones allowed to be around for the prayers at the meetings where you live?

  by StandFirm in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  and please state the general area you live in, if you could.

  thank you..

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  StandFirm

  And please state the general area you live in, if you could. Thank you.
• 
  67

  In response to Standfirm's comment about the two witness rule.

  by life is to short in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  standfirm told me thatl.

  ife is to short,.

  the jw organization says that two witnesses to separate acts of wrongdoing are acceptable for someone to be df'ed.. "if there is another witness to the same type of sin on the part of the accused, this would be basis for forming a judicial committee.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  StandFirm

  aSphereisnotaCircle writes:
  "Then come back here and read real life story after real life story, all saying the same thing."
  Remember that there are two sides to every story. Also think of the Boer case where the same old claims were made but this time they had the chance to be demolished in court.
  
  keyser soze writes:
  "Not to mention confusing the official WT position, with what is carried out by them in practice. They can say anything for the sake of their public image. It doesn't make it reality."
  
  Why do you think the WTS says what it does in confidential letters to elders and the Child Abuse Telememo? As PR? In a confidential document? I think not.
  
  HOW the WTS wants elders to act is obvious from the documentation.
• 
  67

  In response to Standfirm's comment about the two witness rule.

  by life is to short in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  standfirm told me thatl.

  ife is to short,.

  the jw organization says that two witnesses to separate acts of wrongdoing are acceptable for someone to be df'ed.. "if there is another witness to the same type of sin on the part of the accused, this would be basis for forming a judicial committee.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  StandFirm

  There are many responses on this thread and quite frankly, I do not have the time to respond to them. I have debated these subjects ad nauseum on Topix and do not need to do so more.

  For the benefit of lurkers, and for balance's sake, I leave posting the following two links:

  Jehovah's Witnesses and child sex abuse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (only the sourced material remains on Wikipedia - note what is sourced)

  Jehovah's Witnesses Child Abuse Policy--Exposing the Myths (sure it's biased for JWs, but then isn't everyone else here biased against JWs?)
• 
  14

  Elders' Manual - Prior to "Flock" Book

  by StandFirm in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the watch tower publications index under "watch tower publications" under the "books" subheading mentions the following elders' manuals prior to the 1991 "flock" book.

  1960: kingdom ministry school course.

  1972: kingdom ministry school course (revised).

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  StandFirm

  Does anyone know about a booklet given to Judicial Committees from the 1950s and 1960s?
• 
  67

  In response to Standfirm's comment about the two witness rule.

  by life is to short in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  standfirm told me thatl.

  ife is to short,.

  the jw organization says that two witnesses to separate acts of wrongdoing are acceptable for someone to be df'ed.. "if there is another witness to the same type of sin on the part of the accused, this would be basis for forming a judicial committee.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  StandFirm

  OnTheWayOut says:
  "It would seem that, if the religion were the truth, Jehovah would have revealed the matter back then- causing the man to confess or commit suicide."
  
  I suppose you believe that no religion is the truth, since no religion can do as you demand.
  
  "If it ain't the truth, if it's all about covering your ass in legal stuff, if God truly isn't blessing it, .... then there are no easy answers."
  And if it were the truth there would be easy answers? I think not.
  
  "If it's not the truth, then it is in need of destruction."
  A revealing comment. How do you propose this be done?
  
  "When they come forward, all these cases should be turned over to people outside of JW's who are trained to handle them."
  What if nobody wants to? Should the Witnesses override the person's free will? Leaving it up to the family what to do is the best way.
  
  "And in this day and age, if there is even a suspicion of molestation happening..."
  
  In the Salem Witch Trials and the Inquisition judicial acts were also done under the "suspicion" of something happening.
• 
  67

  In response to Standfirm's comment about the two witness rule.

  by life is to short in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  standfirm told me thatl.

  ife is to short,.

  the jw organization says that two witnesses to separate acts of wrongdoing are acceptable for someone to be df'ed.. "if there is another witness to the same type of sin on the part of the accused, this would be basis for forming a judicial committee.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  StandFirm

  life is to short,
  
  At the time of my response I did not realise that you had been abused. I am very sorry to hear it. I hope you are feeling okay, and that the abuser and any who covered it up get what they deserve. I also apologize if my comments were taken as callous, which they in a sense were. I only thought you were commenting on the policy, not that you were abused yourself. That was my mistake.
  
  Regarding your comments on Witness policy,
  
  You wrote:
  "First of all it dose not say that the accused could be DF'ed all it says is that it would be the basis for forming a judicial committee a far cry from being DF'ed."
  
  But it is the first step in that process. Being hardened in a course of sin, like abusing others, is generally considered indicative of lack of repentance. Even if the person was somehow considered repentant, child abuse always means that a public reproof is given with a warning talk on the same subject, thus all will know what the person did.
  
  "Unless a child has the ability to come forward when he or she is raped at the age of six, seven, eight, nine or ten years of age which most kids cannot do. I know I could not do IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
  
  That is, sadly, true in many cases, but not all.
  
  "Then what they say later in life when they are in their 20's, 30's or 40's is memories."
  
  The 1995 Watchtower was speaking about repressed memories, not memories you carry with you always but don't speak about.
  
  "The elders will say..."
  
  I think that this is attributing bad motives to the elders. Even if some elders were so callous, such an attitude has always been condemned by the organization. People in the world in general have said similar things, but that doesn't mean all of the world has such a callous attitude.
  
  "Even if they say that yes Brother Wonderful fondled then or made them before oral sex on him they will not be believed because they were alone when he did it."
  This is precisely the thing the "Flock" book spoke against. They stated that "another witness to the same type of sin" was sufficient for judicial action to be taken.
  
  "We are asked why did we not speak up when we were children and you are thinking in you head I am 40 years old and you are not believing me now, what chance in hell did I have as a 10 year old or 6 year old to be believed. What the molester said was true no would believe me if I did tell. It is true no one does even now that I am 40 years old."
  
  That is very sad. It is a human failing, not an organizational one.
  
  "There is no answer the victim dies either way you look at it."
  
  Sadly, that is true. No matter how well things are handled afterwards the damage has been done.
• 
  14

  Elders' Manual - Prior to "Flock" Book

  by StandFirm in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the watch tower publications index under "watch tower publications" under the "books" subheading mentions the following elders' manuals prior to the 1991 "flock" book.

  1960: kingdom ministry school course.

  1972: kingdom ministry school course (revised).

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  StandFirm

  St George of England: That booklet has some info from legal cases up to 1950. I have that in hard copy form.
• 
  14

  Elders' Manual - Prior to "Flock" Book

  by StandFirm in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the watch tower publications index under "watch tower publications" under the "books" subheading mentions the following elders' manuals prior to the 1991 "flock" book.

  1960: kingdom ministry school course.

  1972: kingdom ministry school course (revised).

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  StandFirm

  Marvin Shilmer,

  Have you considered sharing the information therein? It would be a great help to discussion by both pro- and anti-JWs as the later manuals have.

  If you would be willing, I have a couple questions to ask here about a couple of subjects.
• 
  14

  Elders' Manual - Prior to "Flock" Book

  by StandFirm in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the watch tower publications index under "watch tower publications" under the "books" subheading mentions the following elders' manuals prior to the 1991 "flock" book.

  1960: kingdom ministry school course.

  1972: kingdom ministry school course (revised).

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  StandFirm

  InterestedOne: Does it matter? It's none of their business.
• 
  20

  The two witness rule on child abuse still makes my blood boil

  by life is to short in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  today while i was working i remembered a wt on there having to be two witness to a person who comes forward later in life saying he had been molested as a chld and i was thinking no it really could not have been to blatant like i remembered it.

  sadly i did find it and no i remembered it right.

  it to me is sick!

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  StandFirm

  Hey OUTLAW. I came back for research purposes and thought I'd mix it up a little while I'm here. Anyway, what is this about with pedophiles not bringing an audience?

  The victim is a witness to their own molestation. Can you imagine any organization that would take action against someone on the word of one person alone with no corroborating evidence?