Posts by MDS

posted

117
Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr in
1. watchtower
2. bible
in order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.

these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.

and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
MDS

Hi "JR" and "Logical:"

If we examine Luke 19th chapter, we notice something very unique, as it pertains to our present discussion above.

Luke 19:11, 12 sets the stage for us by saying:

"While they were listening to these he spoke in addition an illustration, because he was near Jerusalem and they were imagining that the kingdom of God was going to display itself instantly. Therefore he said: A certain man of noble birth traveled to a distant land to secure kingly power for himself and to return."

The disciples were interested in the "SECOND COMING" of the Messiah. Jesus gives them an illustration, a setting where they can make the all important connection as to WHEN the Kingdom of God, in the hands of Jesus, is coming in all power and Glory,...thus the SECOND "parousia," or coming of Jesus.

Now, when does this occur?

Luke 19:13-27 provides the answer.

Let's notice verses 14 and 27 of the 19th chapter of Luke. This will tell us EXACTLY WHEN, Jesus returns in "kingdom power," to set matters straight regarding (a) Mosiac Law Covenant, God concluding ACT toward natural "Israel," and (b) to gather his own disciples to return to heaven with him. Just as they asked Jesus at Matthew 24:3:

"Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and the conclusion of the system of things."

The disciples had just been told by Jesus that by "no means will a stone be left upon a stone and not thrown down," of this magnificent temple structure in Jerusalem. (Matthew 24:1,2)

Also, in Luke 21:23 Jesus said of Jerusalem and of its people, natural Israel,

"...For there will be GREAT ...WRATH on this people [natural Israel}..."

Great Wrath was because of rejecting Jesus as king, and complete violation of the Mosiac Law, since God was to have the final say as to who was to becom "king" over "Israel." God has final say on this. God's Chosen One, was rejected by the nation as the "final straw," of disobedience against God. So, now, "Wrath," must come, God's Wrath.

Well, how was this "great wrath" expressed upon this holy city, Jerusalem and its temple? How?

Let's look at what Jesus said again, at Luke 19:14 and 27. I will quote it.

"...but his citizens hated him [Jesus] and sent out a body of ambassadors after him, to say, We do not want this man to become King over us."

Who are these people? ... they are the Natural Nation of "Israel."

They, as a nation, "Hated," Jesus. They did not "want him to become king" over them. But, Jesus was God's Chosen One, God's choice.

And further Jesus says of this disobedient people, Natural Israel,

"Moreover, these enemies of mine that did not want me to become king over them BRING here and SLAUGHTER them before me."

Jesus said, that "Natural Israel," was "HIS ENEMIES"...the people who "did not want him to be king," the ones that rejected God's Kingdom, ... yes, Jesus said of them...they must be "SLAUGHTERED BEFORE HIM."

So, it was JESUS, that "SLAUGHTED" Natural Israel...Jesus.

And when did Jesus do this?

Hence, at Passover of 70 C.E. When the Roman Armies, "slaughtered" 1.1 million Jews in 70 C.E. under General Titus...God's Will was accomplished upon God's "enemies,"... the Natural Nation of Israel.

...but Jesus actually himself, had them "slaughtered," for complete disobedience as a nation. Jesus "Slaughtered" the Natural Nation of Israel...Jesus.

As Jesus promised his disciples, he would return and "receive them home to his self," in heaven. This he did at the same time of this "GREAT WRATH," .. at the same time of this "GREAT SLAUGHTERING," upon his "ENEMIES." At that time, 70 c.e.

Again, Jesus gave the disciples the "event" they should look for, in determing when he would "return," at his SECOND "parousia," or SECOND coming to Jerusalem. -- Matt. 24:1-3

He returned in 70 c.e., exactly when he "slaughtered," the "citizens that hated him" and "did not want him to become king."

Jesus was rejected by the natural nation of "Israel." So, rightfully, Jesus, personally, had them "slaughtered before him."

... the same nation that said to Pilate..."we have no king but CAESAR..." They preferred "CAESAR," Satan's choice to rule, rather than the righteous man, Jesus.

This is why Jesus pointed said of Natural "Israel," and their finale,

"EVERYONE falling upon that stone [Jesus] will be SHATTERED. As for anyone upon whom it falls, IT WILL PULVERIZE HIM." -- Luke 20:18

The natural nation of "Israel," reject Jesus as King...actually "hated" Jesus, and clearly did not want him to begin King over them in perferring "CAESAR" as King over them, rather than Jesus... a complete rejection of the Mosiac Law Covenant, and God's right to choose...to choose who should be "king" over Israel.

Therefore, and properly so, Jehovah God, and Jesus took direct action against the violators of the Mosiac Law Covenant, by having them, "slaughtered before them," yes by "PULVERIZING" these wicked people. Yes, Jesus even "PULVERIZED" this nation, yes Jesus, that "stone," in 70 C.E. Also, at this same time, at the complete destruction of Jerusalem, Jesus also gathers those who are "heaven-bound," gathered them, his faithful disciples, but "abandoned," those who were not worthy as christians followers of his...all in that same year, 70 c.e. -- Matthew 24:40, 41

Luke 19:14 and 27 helps us greatly in this matter to determine the actual time of this most important event in Bible history, as mentioned by Jesus at Matthew 24:1-3.

MDS
11
1960's generation "...you will never grow ...
by MacHislopp in
1. jw
2. friends
take courage all of you "1960's generation":.

awake!

" if you are a young person, you also.
MDS

Hi Larc:
Well, all my friends who predicted Argmagedden whould be here before I graduated from college are grandparents now. I guess that's why I find it dificult to get all emotional when people like spectrum, logical, mds, bjc, and jr come here to tell us we are living in momentous times Armageddon wise. Instead of going preaching, I think I'll go fishing this spring, with my grand daughter.
Larc, my friend, you have us all wrong...allll wrong.
For example, did you know, BJC was baptized in 1952? That's 1952.
She has experienced everything you have AND MORE.
...heard all of the lies from the WTS...all of them. Still, she has manifested "faith," in the "Report."
Her background? ... She did just as you, ... went to College despite the stupidity of the brotherhood, and got TWO DEGREES...(one in Computer Sciences field) ... yes, has lived a good life, plenty of money, nice house, reared 3 kids, had family life, enjoyed fine clothes, travel, did not lack for nothing.
...and you want to look down on BJC?
Personally, BJC's father, also a member of this group, and read the "Report" and accepted the message, ...baptized 1940's, became a PhD and well-respected Educator in the area ... had a plenty of what this world has to offer... did not lack for anything. But they were diligent JWs who possessed real faith in Jehovah and NOT man, the WTS. That's the difference.
So, what did she miss...her father...what did he miss? they had it all....as JWs...lacked for nothing.
...man, you think you are the only one with any "common-sense," and any practical wisdom...I think you are sadly mistaken. -- Luke 16:8
...but BJC and her father, listened to truth, when they heard it, they believed, they believed,...that's where they differ from you...when they heard truth, they BELIEVED. That's the difference. -- Ephesians 1:13
They did not let the WTS STUMBLE them, as you did, they never, ever wavered, never LOST THEIR FAITH...
That's the difference...
Someone cries "Wolf, wolf, wolf," ... and before you know it, You, LARC, are VICTIMIZED by the WTS' FALSE CRIES...still, their "false prophecies," "false cries," has really NOTHING to do with Jehovah God "taking care of business,"... in the end.
...your problem...you've HEARD "WOLF," so much, you can't respond when its time to respond...you are spiritually DEAD...can't respond. You let the WTS kill you... and that is totally inexcusable.
So, you are not sooo smart, afterall.
"Better is a needy but wise child than an OLD but STUPID king, who has not come to know enough to be warned any longer." -- Eccl. 4:13
...the proverbial old man, who HAS NOT come to know enough to be WARNED ANY LONGER...
...that is the finality of the stupid old man.
MDS
117
Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr in
1. watchtower
2. bible
in order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.

these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.

and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
MDS

Hi Emiliano:

Isaiah 54:17 says of Restored "Israel":

"...ANY TONGUE at all that will rise up against you in the judgment YOU WILL CONDEMN ..."

Now, "Emiliano," if this is to be fulfilled within NATURAL "ISRAEL" of the first century as you believe, that is, the people who clearly REJECTED Jesus, the foundation stone of the Christian Congregation, as Messiah, then how do you explain Jesus' clear statement mentioned below toward Natural Israel, mentioned below:

Matthew 12:41, 42 which says:

"Men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with THIS GENERATION [of NATURAL ISRAEL of Jesus' Day] and will CONDEMN IT ; because they repented at what Jonah preached, but, Look! something more than Jonah is here. The queen of the south will be raised up in the judgment with THIS GENERATION [of NATURAL ISRAEL of Jesus' Day] and will CONDEMN IT; because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, but, Look! something more than Solomon is here."

Did you notice that these people of OTHER NATIONS, will "CONDEMN" Natural Israel, just as Jesus said. They will "rise up in the judgment," and "CONDEMN" NATURAL ISRAEL, just as Jesus said. They will indeed, do so.

How could this be, if Restored "Israel," is acting in a elevated, PRIESTLY capacity toward ALL OF THE EARTH, administering the "Abrahamic Covenant" to all of the world? -- Isaiah 2:2-6

How could this be?

Can you explain this for us?

Remember Jesus plainly said to Natural Israel,

"Consequently I say to you people [Natural Israel], it will be MORE ENDURABLE for the land of Sodom on Judgment Day than for you."

If, as you say "Emiliano", Natural Israel is to be EXALTED to such heights as we read up above eventually in the end, then, how can you explain "Sodom," rising up on "Judgment Day," given a resurrection life on earth again, and having a more "endurable", tolerable existence than Restored, Exalted, Elevated, Priestly "Israel?"

How can you explain this?

MDS
117
Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr in
1. watchtower
2. bible
in order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.

these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.

and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
MDS

TR:

There have been, some 138 CASES involving Jehovah's Witnesses, appeals and petitions that have been presented to the UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT.

This does not count the many cases that have been brought forth and won, in foreign countries, like Canada, and Germany.

For example, on May 3, 1943 the Supreme Court of the United States ruled in favor of Jehovah's Witnesses on some 12 out of 13 cases, all of which were consolidated for hearing and opinion into four decisions.

On Jun 14, 1943, one month later, the United States Supreme Court again reversed itself, on the Gobitis case, and ruled in favor of Jehovah's Witnesses, "Virginia State board of Education vs. Barnette.

All things considered, we are reminded of the many issues fought and won by Jehovah's Witnesses, in the courts of the land, all over the world...over

1) military conscription into the Armed Forces,
2) the flag salute issue within the schools of the land,
3) the right to preach from door-to-door,
4) the right to "preach" publicly WITHOUT having to buy a "License," from local or state authorities,
5) the right to distribute religious literature without being taxed,
6)Clearing themselves of the charges of being anti-Government "seditionists," and so on.

Jehovah's Witnessse have fought and won, on all of these issues, in the courts of man, particularly since the year of 1943.

They have received much help from Jehovah God over legal issues and their right to practice their religious beliefs.

See "Jehovah's Witnesses, Proclaimers of God's Kingdom" pages 678-703.

MDS
117
Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr in
1. watchtower
2. bible
in order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.

these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.

and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
MDS

Hi "JR," and "Logical:"

Exodus 19:5, 6 says:

"And now IF you will strictly obey my voice and will indeed keep my covenant, THEN you will certainly become my special property out of all other people because the whole earth belongs to me. And you yourselves will become to me a kingdom and priest and a holy nation..."

Just as "BJC2012" said in the above post, the word "IF" makes the situation "conditional."

The words "If" and "then" are present in the promise from God to natural Israel, "If," and "then." So, natural "Israel" gains the promise, "IF" they obey. It is only "then," when they "obey," that they receive, "inherit" the promises of God.

But if they had a ABSOLUTE GUARANTEE of these blessings, the words "IF," and "then," would not be in the promise at all.

Truly the promise to natural "Israel," was conditional. Obedience was the key factor, just as it was with "Adam and Eve." Obedience was the key factor. God is consistent in all things.

Actually, if natural Israel had a "irrevocable," GUARANTEE to become one day, a "Kingdom and Priestly, Holy Nation" before God, if they had a GUARANTEE...then the word "IF" would not be there at all.

That says it all...I think.

What do you think?

MDS
117
Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr in
1. watchtower
2. bible
in order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.

these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.

and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
MDS

Hi Emiliano:

The promises to Restored "Israel," and the blessing God heaped upon restored "Israel," are quite lofty. These are just some of the marvelous blessings that are promised by Jehovah God, for our "Israel," of our day, the Restoration of "Israel."

"Israel" is promised at Isaiah 61:6:

"And as for you, the PRIESTS OF JEHOVAH you will be called; the MINISTERS OF OUR GOD you will be said to be..."

As, "Priests," a Royal, Priestly Nation, Restored "Israel," will administrate the "Abrahamic Covenant" to all nations. -- Isaiah 2:2-6; 4:2-6

1 Peter 2:9 says of SPIRITUAL "Israel," first century christians of Peter's Day,

"But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies of the one that called you out of darkness into his wonderful light."

That is, SPIRITUAL "ISRAEL", of the first century, ... Baptized Christians, members of the "New Covenant," instituted by Jesus Christ as Mediator. Spiritual "Israel," became this "royal priesthood," this "holy nation," likened to the same spiritual status, as ancient Natural Israel originally. Clearly, Spiritual "Israel," in accordance with God's Maganificent Purposes, had indeed REPLACED Natural "Israel," the ones who rejected Jesus. -- See Matt. 21:43; Galatians 6:16

Then, too, we this scriptural statement. Yes, the Apostle James referred to "Christians" during His day as the "Twelve Tribes," of Israel. Let's consider the following verse:

"James, a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the TWELVE TRIBES that are scattered about." -- James 1:1

These were "Christians," that James was writing here. He was writing the ENTIRE CHRISTIAN CONGREGATION in this divinely inspired letter. The Christian Congregation, as a whole. James was clearly addressing, Christian Brothers of his, the congregation itself, as Spiritual "Israelites," the "Twelve Tribes," as it were. Yes, Christians who were equated, under inspiration in James mind, to the "Twelve Tribes" of Israel. -- See James 1:1.

And just as it can be established, that Spiritual Israel existed in the first century. So too, it can be proven today, that there exists also, modern-day SPIRITUAL "Israel," of our day.

This is why, at Revelation 12:1, which predicts so many events of our day and time, yes, the "woman" is described as having a "crown of 12 stars." This "crown" identifies her, let's us know exactly who she is. Modern-day Spiritual "Israel," of our times.

The "Crown of 12 Stars", each Star, standing for each of the "Twelve Tribes" of Israel. The "woman," symbolizes, "Israel," spiritual "Israel," of our day and time. Modern-day "Israel," that must first be discipline, repent, and finally fully Restored to God's Eternal Favor...Spiritual Israel of our day and time. The verse says:

"And a great sign was seen in heaven, a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon was beneath her feet, and on her head was a crown of TWELVE STARS."

Jehovah promises, Spiritual "Israel," of our day, that they become the "PRIESTS of JEHOVAH," that is, Restored "Israel" of our day and time.

Also, Isaiah 60:11, 12 promises:

"And your gates will actually be kept open constantly; they will not be closed even by day or by night, in order to bring to you the resources of the nations, and their kings will be taking the lead. For any nation and any kingdom that will not serve you will perish; and the nations themselves will without fail come to devastation."

All nations will "serve" Restored "Israel." If they do not, they "perish," off the face of the earth, God promises.

Isaiah 54:17 says of Restored "Israel":

"...ANY TONGUE at all that will rise up against you in the judgment YOU WILL CONDEMN..."

Now, "Emiliano," if this is to be fulfilled within NATURAL "ISRAEL" of the first century, the people who clearly REJECTED Jesus, the foundation stone of the Christian Congregation, as Messiah, then how do you explain Jesus' clear statement mentioned below at

Matthew 12:41, 42 which says:

"Men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with THIS GENERATION [of NATURAL ISRAEL of Jesus' Day] and will CONDEMN IT; because they repented at what Jonah preached, but, Look! something more than Jonah is here. The queen of the south will be raised up in the judgment with THIS GENERATION [of NATURAL ISRAEL of Jesus' Day] and will CONDEMN IT; because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, but, Look! something more than Solomon is here."

Did you notice that these people of OTHER NATIONS, will "CONDEMN" Natural Israel, just as Jesus said. They will "rise up in the judgment," and "CONDEMN" NATURAL ISRAEL, just as Jesus said. They will indeed, do so.

How could this be, if Restored "Israel," is acting in a elevated, PRIESTLY capacity toward ALL OF THE EARTH?

How could this be?

Remember Jesus plainly said to Natural Israel,

"Consequently I say to you people [Natural Israel], it will be MORE ENDURABLE for the land of Sodom on Judgment Day than for you."

If, as you say "Emiliano", Natural Israel is to be EXALTED to such heights as we read up above, then, how can you explain "Sodom," rising up on "Judgment Day," and having a more "endurable", tolerable existence than Restored "Israel?"

How can you explain this?

Clearly, it is SPIRITUAL "ISRAEL", Spiritual "Israel," that will "receive" of all these blessings we have read up above, and will ADMINISTRATE the Abrahamic Covenant, after being SEVERELY DISCIPLINED BY GOD. Restored, Spiritual "Israel" will receive of these Grand Blessings, and not Natural Israel, who clearly rejected Jesus, and the Christian Arrangement of the first century. -- Zechariah 8:20-23.

MDS

Edited by - MDS on 6 March 2001 14:49:48
24
The kings of the earth and Armaggeddon and wrath!
by spectromize in
1. jw
2. friends
then the kings of the earth and the great men and the generals and the rich and the strong, and everyone, slave and free, hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, calling to the mountains and rocks, "fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand before it?".

some of the kings of the earth and their supporters are aware of what the bible book of revelation says concerning the time of the end and their destruction for not having acknowledge jehovah's rulership and sovereignty, also they have failed to acknowledge jesus as king of kings and lord of lords in subject to the great king jehovah god.. the scriptures have put satan's system on notice but few take notice.

they prefer to live like the days of noah.
MDS

Hi Spec:
Could you please comment on the following information, provide some clarification on the subject.
"KINGS...STANDING AT A DISTANCE" -- WHO ARE THEY? (Revelation 18:9, 10)
Spec, actually, we today, can say with complete confidence, that these "kings of the earth", of Revelation 18:9, 10 CANNOT be political figures themselves. Actually, no. Why?
This is because when the Woman [Babylon the Great] is said to be destroyed by the scarlet-colored political "beast," yes, the "kings of the earth" are "STANDING AT A DISTANCE," yes, “standing at a distance,” weeping profusely over her destruction, as clearly indicated at Revelation 18:9,10. – Please consider.
Yes, according to Revelation 18:9, 10, these verses, clearly place these "kings of the earth" in a different perspective from the political "beast" that carries out the devastation upon Babylon. Let's see.
Actually, the direct quotes from the Watch Tower Society's publications on the subject, indicate this. To clear up the matter of just who these "kings of the earth" are, let's first notice this quote concerning the "ten horns" of Revelation 17:12-14 who carry out the destruction of Babylon the Great. On page 594 par. # 1 of the publication "Babylon the Great HAS FALLEN! -- God Kingdom Rules," we find this comment. It says:
"In Daniel's prophecy, horns on the head of a symbolic animal are used to represent individual kings or national rulers. As the number ten is used in the Bible to stand for earthly completeness or perfection, the expression "ten horns" would symbolize, not ten literally, but ALL OR THE COMPLETE NUMBER OF KINGS OR NATIONAL RULERS ON EARTH."
Yes, in this explanation, "ten" represents earthly completeness and therefore stands for the "COMPLETE NUMBER of kings or national rulers on earth." Yes, these "kings" will be united in their destruction of Babylon the Great.
However notice this comment from the same publication on page 609 par. # 1 on the subject of the "kings of the earth." It states:
"Those mourning kings COULD HARDLY BE IDENTICAL IN PERSONALITY with the symbolic ten horns of the scarlet colored wild beast that hate the harlot, Babylon the Great, and devastate her and burn her with fire. They are kings or political rulers who fornicated and enjoyed shameless luxury with her during her popularity and who do not turn on her. They have been taken by surprise, because, as they themselves mournfully say, Jehovah's execution of judgment upon her arrived `in one hour.' What fun they used to have with her! But, when judgment comes like a thief, they cannot help or preserve her for their further unclean pleasure. Afraid to interfere, they stand off in fear of sharing the fiery torment with her. Still, they share responsibility for her crimes. So, next in order they will inescapably suffer pain when God executes judgment upon them."
ISN'T THIS A CONTRADICTION?
In the first explanation, the WTS plainly says the "ten horns" are the "complete number of kings or national rulers on earth." "THE COMPLETE NUMBER" of them. That point is clear.
But, then, the Watchtower Society now says, that there are OTHER "kings"...yes, OTHER "KINGS OF THE EARTH," other political Rulers, Other political forces, "NOT IDENTICAL" to the "Ten Horn Beast," that do not necessarily carry out the destruction of Babylon the Great, but only "STAND AT A DISTANCE," of her destruction and "mourn" over her. How can this be?
Who are these Other "Kings of the Earth," we ask?
Can you say, Spec?
Yes, in the second explanation, we've noticed the WTS has said the "mourning," "kings of the earth", who "stand at a distance" of the destruction of Babylon the Great, yes, "could hardly be identical in personality with the symbolic ten horns of the scarlet colored wild beast." So then, who are they, we ask?
This is in light of the fact that the Watchtower Society also teaches the "ten horns" on the Political "Wild Beast," does picture the "COMPLETE NUMBER number of rulers upon the earth". Yes, that's the "COMPLETE NUMBER." Now, how are we to understand this, Spec?
How can this be?
Yes, Spec, if the "ten horn" beast represents the "complete number of kings on earth,".... then....who are these other "kings," who "stand at a distance" and "mourn" the destruction of "Babylon the Great," who are they? Yes, where did they come from and how are they different from the "complete number of rulers upon the earth?
Can you answer this, Spec?
Yes, Spec, how can you harmonize this teaching with the Holy Scriptures and good, common sense "reasoning." -- Acts 17:2, 17; Romans 12:1
It appears, this teaching is a complete, contradiction of the Watchtower Society. Those pages again are: 594 par. 1 and 609 par. 1, from the “Babylon the Great Has Fallen – God’s Kingdom Rules” Publication. Check out for yourself and see if this is not what the WTS teaches.
MDS
"...who has believed the THING HEARD" [the "Report"] -- Isa. 53:1; John 12:38
Edited by - MDS on 6 March 2001 11:41:55
117
Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr in
1. watchtower
2. bible
in order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.

these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.

and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
MDS

IDENTIFYING "SPIRITUAL ISRAEL" IN OUR MODERN TIMES

Jehovah's Witnesses themselves, over the years, have had a hard time identifying the true nature of "Spiritual Israel," Its true identity. Sure, they know that the first century christians, were consider "Israel" of their time. This they know.

But, today as they explain it, they say that only the 144,000 are to be considered the real, "Spiritual Israel" of our time. And the "Great Crowd" have no such direct, intimate, standing with God, as "Spiritual Israelites," even as we see this point is greatly contested upon this Discussion Board.

The Governing Body, then too, in their saying this, thus claim that the "Great Crowd" of Jehovah's Witnesses, supposedly assembled since 1935, according to them, do not even have a "mediator" in Jesus Christ at all. No, "mediator," between God and themselvses as a nation. They also claim the "Great Crowd," are not in a Covenant Relationship with Jehovah God at all, and thus, cannot claim to having a mediator, the appointed one, Jesus Christ.

But at the same time, the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses claim the "Great Crowd," are Christians still, yes, Christians, bound by all of the teachings and commandments of being a Christian left by Jesus, and therefore bound by the Christian Law of Love and can even approach Jehovah God through prayer, using Jesus' Name, somehow, without Jesus actually being their "mediator." They claim the "Great Crowd," are NON-Spiritual Israelites, but can approach Jehovah, thru Jesus, without even RECOGNIZING Jesus as their personal "mediator" between God and them, as a nation.

Now, we ask how, can this be?

Actually, the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses cannot explain this situation, even to this day, in a concise, precise manner. They even acknowledge there is no precendent set for this teaching in the first century among christians of that time era, since they teach only the "Anointed," the 144,000 were those that made up the first century congregation itself. With no "Great Crowd" being present in the first century congregation.

With this being the case for Jehovah's Witnesses today, identifying mysterious "Spiritual Israel" of our day and time, yes gaining its TRUE IDENTITY, becomes a GREAT MYSTERY. Today, there is much confusion on the subject, as evidenced above.

Is it true that only 144,000 have Jesus as their "mediator?" Or, are Jehovah's Witnesses, as a group, yes, the "Great Crowd," considered "Israelites," before God? which?

A key Bible Text that sheds great light upon this important question is shown in Revelation 7:9, 15. This verse has been the subject of some debate among God's Name people in recent years.

For instance, perhaps, some remember, in the early 1980s a question arose concerning this particular Bible Text and many Bible scholars at Bethel, Raymond Franz being among them, just prior to the 1980 Bethel Apostasy Situation.

After the ouster of RV Franz and other key Bethelite membership, such as Ed Dunlap, and R. Lentatt (who voluntarily left Bethel after having compiled together the Aid Book with the former two brothers), Sanchez, and other key Bethel Staff in, 8 members in all, the Watchtower Society decided to "address" the scriptural concerns cited by these Bible Scholars, now declared "apostates."

There were a number of issues to be addressed. One of them, had to do with the "Great Crowd" of Revelation 7:9, 15 being found in the "Temple," or Greek "Naos," area.

An article was written by the WTS entitled "The Great Crowd Renders Sacred Service Where?", a study article, published in the August 15, 1980 Watchtower Magazine, pages 14-20. The purpose of this article was to subdue the idea that the "Great Crowd" could be scripturally said to be serving God, in his "temple," [Naos] IN HEAVEN. Are they seen, in heaven, serving God, in the "Temple." This was the point of the article. But it still did not address the fact of why "Gentiles," were found there, in the "Naos," in the first place. A place where only Jews were permitted to worship.

We remember, the "Naos," "temple" area, is the area where ONLY ISRAEL worships. So, since ONLY ISRAELITES, could worship there in that particularly area per say, how do we explain a "Great Crowd" of various ethnic backgrounds, languages, and cultures, being present there, worshiping God, "Day and night", God's "Temple," or "Naos?" That is the question.

Yes, A "Great Crowd," from "ALL NATIONS, TRIBES, PEOPLES and TONGUES" worshiping God there, in His "Naos," or Temple. The place where ONLY Jews, worshiped God. How could this be? -- Revelation 7:9, 15

Why were these "nations, tribes, peoples and tongues," people from every ethnic background, culture, and language group permitted to be there? Why did God permit them to "worship" Him from the "Naos," temple area? Where only Israel was permitted to worship.

MAIN POINT: Could it be, the "Great Crowd" are seen in God's eyes, as being "Israelites," spiritual Israelites to Jehovah God?

If they were considered "Gentiles," then they would worship God, from BEHIND the "wall," that divided the Holy area, from the "Court of the Gentiles," which was considered outside the Sanctuary area. They would be in the place that "Gentiles" were normally relegated. The Greek word "Heron," then would have been employed in Revelation 7:15, since, it describes the "entire precinct area of the temple." And, with that being the case, now we can see this including the area where the "Gentiles" worshiped, the "Court of the Gentiles." But this is not the Greek word John uses in Revelation 7:15.

No but He uses "Naos." Yes, these "nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues," are seen, clearly, in the INNER SANCTUARY AREA, the "Naos," as it were. Why? Is it because they, to God, Jehovah they are SPIRITUAL JEWS, SPIRITUAL ISRAELITES?

Could this be the case?

If this is the case, consistent with the Greek language employed by John under inspiration, they we safely say, the "Great Crowd," regardless of the ethnic origin, culture and background, are ALL CONSIDERED "SPIRITUAL JEWS," in God's sight...all of the "Great Crowd," are "Jews," to Jehovah...they are Spiritual Israel, modern-day Israel to Jehovah God, serving him in His "temple," or "Naos."

And since the "Great Crowd," are said to have come thru a "Great Tribulation," a great time of trouble, then, it is easy to identify who they really are, ... the ones who come through "Great Tribulation," the "trampling period," the "Gentile times," ... they are diversified group, an international religious group, ... they are Jehovah's Witnesses, themselves, as a nation.

MDS
3
'Fleeing' to the mountains?
by ISP in
1. watchtower
2. bible
*** rbi8 matthew 24:15-16 ***.

15 "therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) 16 then let those in jude'a begin fleeing to the mountains.

the wts believes this has relevance in relation to end-time prophecies.
MDS

Hi ISP:
The book of Daniel is quite "relevant" for christians today. Many professed christians around the world believe so. Therefore, it behooves all lovers of truth, to investigate carefully, to ascertain any purported relevance for our day.
First, we must say, the book of Daniel does frequently speak of a terrific conflict between God's Name People and a powerful "king of the North," a "Small Horn" that it describes, does launch a SURPRISE ATTACK upon the "Holy People of the Supreme One,"...a Special People of God, designated as "holy ones," who are under a "Holy Covenant." -- Daniel 7:8-27; 8:9-14; 11:28, 30, 32, 40; 12:7, 11
Now, the real "relevance" of Matt. 24:15 , the "fleeing to the mountains," as it were, the "end time" situation itself, and why so many Scripture/Prophecy-Conscience People today believe there is a powerful connection between what Jesus predicted and current events of our time, is mentioned for us at Daniel 8:19 which says:
"And he went on to say: Here I am causing you to know what will occur in the final part of the dununciation, because it is for the appointed time of the end." -- Daniel 8:19
So, the simple long and short of this terrific situation is:
a certain unidentified "holy people," are found in the "time of the end," "ACTING WICKEDLY AGAINST" a "[holy] Covenant of God." -- Daniel 11:28, 30, 32
This "acting wickedly against" God's Covenant must be addressed, atoned for, from the "Supreme One's" perspective. Punishment must be given out because of "transgression" committed by this "holy nation." God sees to it. -- Daniel 8:12
Jeremiah 30:7, 11 says:
"Alas! For that day is a great one, so that there is no other like it, and it is the time of distress for Jacob. But he will be saved even out of it...For I am with is the utterance of Jehovah, to save you; but I shall make an extermination among the all the nations to which I have scattered you. However, in your case I shall make no extermination. And I shall have to correct you to the proper degree, as I shall by no means leave you unpunished."
So, Jehovah purposes to DISCIPLINE His Name People, Israel, BEFORE He finally takes action upon all "nations," who persist in opposition to Him right up to the very end. Those who do not repent.
"Israel," has ignored genuine prophecy, Divine Warnings, and is thus, not aware of this coming "discipline" upon herself. This is because of being completely "haughty," and overly prideful of her present-day "haughtily exultant" leaders, and cannot be warned about its sure coming. -- Zephaniah 3:11, 12
Nevertheless, this same holy people, the obedient among them, the "Holy Ones of the Supreme One," are also spoken of as being, IN THE END AFTER PERSECUTION, yes, given a special "kingdom." Daniel tells us that "Israel," will be given an "INDEFINITELY LASTING KINGDOM, where ALL rulerships will serve and obey even them," -- a Grand Kingdom -- God's Kingdom. This "Kingdom" is given them by God Almighty, the "Supreme One", "Israel," has been disciplined for transgression and sin. This "Kingdom," will rule the earth forever and ever. -- Daniel 2:44; 7:27
But before they can be granted this "Indefinitely lasting kingdom," God's kingdom, this "holy people" must endure a particularly distressful situation of "harassment" and trouble for a specified "time, times, and half a time," -- a very specific period of distress of 3 1/2 years. (Revelation 12:6, 14) During this time, a particularly sinister, powerful political ruler will surface. He is called the "king of the North." Also, the "Small Horn."
He will launch an unexpected, surprise attack upon this "holy land," and "holy people," who have a "holy covenant" with God. The "holy people," do not see this coming at all. They are totally UNPREPARED for this. But, God allows this.
When the surprise attack is launced, a serious split will occur for this "Holy Nation," with many of them being led "into apostasy by means of smooth words" by this evil, sinister political "king." But the Bible promises, "...as regards the people who are knowing their God, they will prevail and act effectively." Some will possess "insight," and others will not and will be thus, "led into apostasy by means of smooth words" by the "King of the North" or the "small horn." -- Daniel 7:21-27; 11:28-35
All of this trouble comes upon God's Holy People and could have been prevented, avoided, if "transgression" had NOT BEEN COMMITTED by this Holy People, against the "holy covenant" in the first place. It could have all been avoided, if "transgression" had been acknowledged, changes made and repentance demonstrated thereof, by the nation, and forgiveness could have been granted. But, the "holy nation," led by wicked men, greedy "ROBBERS," of God's People, demonstrated no repentance at all, but instead attacked any one who tried to direct them to Repentance," like the "Two Witnesses." -- Daniel 8:23; 11;14, 28, 30, 32; Revelation 11:3-8
The real reason for these difficulties, this entire situation is mentioned for us at Daniel 8:12 which says:
"and an army itself was gradually given over, together with the constant feature, BECAUSE OF TRANSGRESSION; and it kept throwing TRUTH to the earth, and it acted and had success."
These people, who are "given over" to the Political Powers that be at that time, the "Small Horn," or "king of the north," the one who "tramples", "harrasses," "the holy people of the Supreme One," for a pre-defined period of a "time, times, and half a time," or "42 months," ... do indeed have "TRUTH," just as the bible says above. They possess "truth," as God's Holy Nation. They are God's people, modern-day "Israel," Jehovah's Witnesses of our day and time. -- Daniel 8:12; Rev. 11:2
When Jesus mentioned "fleeing to the mountains," ... his main point was to "flee" away from area of "Judea," particularly the city and center of worship for the nation, the "Jerusalem." Mark 13:14, shows one should even "flee" even from "Judea," the entire area itself. In essence, "flee from idolatry," as mentioned at 1 Cor. 10:14.
"Jerusalem," the city, and the entire area of "Judea," has become, the center of "idolatry," before our God. Thus, this "fleeing" action for Jesus' diciples in the first century, is synonymous with the urgency to "get out of babylon" mentioned at Isaiah 48:20, 52:11, Jeremiah 50:8, 51:45, and Revelation 18;4. This timely counsel found at Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14 then, is saying the same thing for God's People. In other words, if one does not want to suffer the consequences of the coming "42 months" of "trampling," then one must flee the center of Idolatry, spiritual "Jerusalem," which in God's eyes, is now likened to the "Great City," of Babylon the Great, "Sodom," and "Egypt." All places of spiritual degradation, and bondage, and slavery for "Israel." -- Revelation 11:8; Isaiah 11:11-16
So, the counsel of Jesus, stresses "ESCAPE" from "Jerusalem," even "Judea," the entire area -- yes, escape from IDOLATRY. In our day, the "mountains" simply represent places of refuge from spiritual "Jerusalem," of our day. Isaiah 2:2,5,6 shows that God's People can indeed, step over "into light," spiritual light, away from spiritual darkness, and into "light," which is to be found in the "MOUNTAIN of the House of Jehovah," a new spiritual Mountain of God, established for the purpose of pure worship...an earthly "Mount Zion" that enjoys God's Eternal Protection and Guidance. -- See Isaiah 4:2-6.
Therefore, Jesus, at Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14, is simply reiterating what Daniel, the prophet, had alread warned about, a time of severe discipline, severe persecution, because of "Israel's" own "transgression" -- violation of God's Holy Covenant. Jesus points his disciples away from the practice of idolatry, the spiritual city of Jerusalem, the center point of idolatry.
Actually, at Hebrews 13:13, 14 Paul gives the same advice...to FLEE idolatry, Jerusalem. John's famous advise, where he writes at Revelation 18:4, for God's People [Israel] to "get out of Babylon," the center of IDOLATRY.
So, it is clear, yes, true Christians today, then, must flee from the "Great City," Babylon the Great, Jerusalem, God's Name City. -- Jeremiah 25:29; Revelation 11:8
Zechariah 2:6,7
too, carries the same message:
"Hey there! Hey there! FLEE, then, you people, from the land of the north, is the utterance of Jehovah. For in the direction of the four winds of the heavens I have spread you people abroad, is the utterance of Jehovah. Hey there, Zion! MAKE YOUR ESCAPE, you who are dwelling with the daughter of BABYLON."

MDS
"The Sovereign Lord Jehovah himself has given me the tongue of the taught ones, that I may know how to answer the tired one with a word. He awakens morning by morning; he awakens my ear to hear like the taught ones. The Sovereign Lord Jehovah himself has opened my ear, and I, for my part, was not rebellious. I did not turn in the opposite direction. My back I gave to the strikers, and my cheeks to those plucking off the hair, My face I did not conceal from humiliating things and spit." -- Isaiah 50:4-6; Psalms 40:8
Edited by - MDS on 4 March 2001 15:15:3
3
She Lives In "Shameless Luxury" -- Re...
by MDS in
1. watchtower
2. bible
"...clearly now, it says `kings of the earth.

however notice this comment from the same publication on page 609 par.

and yet they also say that the "kings of the earth" are `weeping' because of her destruction.
MDS

THE "KINGS OF THE EARTH"
But who are these "kings of the earth" that Babylon has a "kingdom over?" (Revelation 17:2, 18; 18:9,10) Some one might say, as indicated above:
"they represent the political rulers, all over the earth", that the wily, world empire of false religion exhibits somehow, some uncanny superior "control", power over.
This is what the WTS teaches on the matter. But, is this truly the case? Let’s see.
The word "kings" is an interesting word here, in the verses cited above from the book of Revelation. (Revelation 17:2; 18; 18:9, 10) It is the Greek word [basileus] which according to Strong's Exhaustive Concordance and Dictionary: is taken from a word that gives the "notion of a foundation of power; a sovereign [either] abstractly, relatively, or figuratively." In other words, it would include any person in a position of "power" or authority, either "abstractly, relatively, or figuratively." It is a relative term and therefore is not limited to political figures.
Again, someone may object here and say:
"…clearly now, it says `kings of the earth.' And that would have to be political figures, political rulers of our secular world, wouldn't it?"
ABSOLUTELY NOT! In fact, we could take it a step further and say with complete confidence, these "kings of the earth" CANNOT be political figures themselves. Why?
Because when the Woman [Babylon the Great] is said to be destroyed by the scarlet-colored political "beast," yes, the "kings of the earth" are "STANDING AT A DISTANCE," yes, “standing at a distance,” weeping profusely over her destruction, as clearly indicated at Revelation 18:9,10. – Please consider.
Yes, according to Revelation 18:9 & 10, these verses, clearly places these "kings of the earth" in a different perspective from the political "beast" that carries out the devastation upon Babylon!
Of course, devoted JWs at this point would surely say,
“Let's check the WTS’ publications…I don’t think we have the clear understanding of what the WTS teaches here…something is wrong, clearly…let’s check out the publications…the WTS' publications on the matter.”
Yes, let’s get the actual quotes from the Watch Tower Society to clear up the matter of just who these "kings of the earth" are. Let's first notice this quote concerning the "ten horns" of Revelation 17:12-14 who carry out the destruction of Babylon the Great. On page 594 par. # 1 of the publication "Babylon the Great HAS FALLEN! -- God Kingdom Rules," we find this comment. It says:
"In Daniel's prophecy, horns on the head of a symbolic animal are used to represent individual kings or national rulers. As the number ten is used in the Bible to stand for earthly completeness or perfection, the expression "ten horns" would symbolize, not ten literally, but ALL OR THE COMPLETE NUMBER OF KINGS OR NATIONAL RULERS ON EARTH."
Yes, in this explanation, "ten" represents earthly completeness and therefore stands for the "COMPLETE NUMBER of kings or national rulers on earth." Yes, these "kings" will be united in their destruction of Babylon the Great.
However notice this comment from the same publication on page 609 par. # 1 on the subject of the "kings of the earth." It states:
"Those mourning kings could hardly be identical in personality with the symbolic ten horns of the scarlet colored wild beast that hate the harlot, Babylon the Great, and devastate her and burn her with fire. They are kings or political rulers who fornicated and enjoyed shameless luxury with her during her popularity and who do not turn on her. They have been taken by surprise, because, as they themselves mournfully say, Jehovah's execution of judgment upon her arrived `in one hour.' What fun they used to have with her! But, when judgment comes like a thief, they cannot help or preserve her for their further unclean pleasure. Afraid to interfere, they stand off in fear of sharing the fiery torment with her. Still, they share responsibility for her crimes. So, next in order they will inescapably suffer pain when God executes judgment upon them."
TIME TO THINK A LITTLE
Well, now let's think about what we have just read. YES, THINK! (Proverbs 3:21) In the first explanation, they say the "ten horns" are the "complete number of kings or national rulers on earth." These "kings" carry out the destruction of Babylon the Great. But in the second explanation, they say that the "mourning" kings of the earth "could hardly be identical in personality with the symbolic ten horns of the scarlet colored wild beast." Well, if the "ten horns" picture the "complete" number of rulers upon the earth, then who are these other "kings," who stand at a distance? Yes, who are they? Can you believe your eyes! Yes, the Watch Tower Society, in less than 15 pages apart in the same book, totally contradicts themselves!
Those pages again are: 594 par. 1 and 609 par. 1, from the “Babylon the Great Has Fallen – God’s Kingdom Rules” Publication. Check out for yourself and see if this is not what the WTS teaches.
Remember, the Watchtower Society says that the "beast" actually represents the political rulers of the world, right? And yet they also say that the "kings of the earth" are `weeping' because of her destruction. Now, we must ask,
how can the "kings of the earth" be "weeping" over her destruction and at the same time be the very ones carrying out her destruction? How can that be?
Why its simply an impossibility!
If that were true, the "kings of the earth" would have to be in two places at the same time, wouldn't they? And we know, that's not so.
“THE KINGS … WHO LIVED WITH HER IN SHAMELESS LUXURY”
Also, another important clue being overlooked that would have helped sincere Jehovah's Witnesses identify this mystery Woman is given to us at Revelation 18:9,10 which says:

"And the kings of the earth who committed fornication with her and lived in SHAMELESS LUXURY will weep and beat themselves in grief over her, when they look at the smoke from the burning of her, while they stand at a distance because of their fear of her torment and say, 'Too bad, too bad, you great city, Babylon you strong city, because in one hour your judgment has arrived!
Really, are the secular kings of this world, divided in their opinion, even "weeping" over the destruction of Babylon the Great, as the scriptures indicate above? Are some political kings over here in favor of destroying Babylon the Great and other political kings over there not in favor of destroying her? Is that what the verses indicate, above?
No, the book of Revelation itself, does not teach this as we shall soon see! And further we must ask, another question: what do the kings of the secular world really have to "fear" concerning the destruction of Babylon the Great, anyway? In what way, can “fear” be inspired in the Political Rulers of this earth, with only the destruction of “Babylon the Great?” In what way? Actually, these “king of the earth,” would only be in “fear” because of the destruction of Babylon the Great, unless, yes unless, perhaps, they are somehow CONNECTED with this great, wicked religious entity…somehow connected with her…somehow. Thus suggesting the idea that they are NOT Political “kings,” at all…no not at all. “Kings,” but not political “kings.”
Let's explore these thoughts…these possibilities.
First of all, the kings of this secular world would have nothing to "fear" from the destruction of Babylon the Great, since they are the very ones carrying out this destruction! Think about it! What sense does it make to think that the very individuals bringing about Babylon's destruction, are really "weeping" over her and in great "fear?" Does that make sense to you?
Also, they would not be "standing off at a distance" either. No, because they are right there, yes, very present, carrying out this powerful destruction work! And the Bible makes quite clear that they are not half-hearted or divided even in this wrecking work! They delight in doing it! Revelation 17:12-14 plainly says:
"And the ten horns that you saw mean ten kings, who have not yet received a kingdom, but they do receive authority as kings, one hour with the wild beast. These have one thought, and so they give their power and authority to the wild beast..."
Did you notice that "ten kings" are spoken of here? As you recall, the Watchtower Society teaches that the number "ten" is a number of earthly completeness. Therefore, if what the Watchtower Society teaches is true, all the "kings of the earth" are in harmony with the destruction of "Babylon the Great, right? And if they have "one thought" or one idea about destroying her, then they are not divided in anyway, in thought or in action. They work as a team.
Also, how about the expression "SHAMELESS LUXURY" mentioned at Revelation 18:9? This too is an important clue in identifying the mysterious Babylon the Great. We remember it is also said of Babylon the Great that she lives in "shameless luxury." Yes she is filthy rich and quite lavish in her spending...UPON HERSELF! (Revelation 18:7) Could it be possible that the two are somehow sharing the wealth??? Could it be? Yes, could there be a sharing of the wealth, as it were. Notice:
"And the woman whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth." -- Revelation 17:18
Yes, she has authority even over these particular figurative "kings of the earth." She has a government, or "kingdom" over these "kings" or officials of the earth." Obviously, her "kingdom" or government is not a secular government of any kind – no, not based upon what we have learned thus far. Therefore, this must be a figurative government or rulership, yes "kingdom." Could it be that these high officials or "kings" are the leaders or authority figures of the one and same organization that Babylon reigns supreme over as "Queen?" — See Revelation 18:7
"THOSE DWELLING ON THE EARTH"
But, why does it say "kings of the earth?" Certainly this would mean rulers of the planet earth in which we inhabit, wouldn't it? Well, let's go back to the eleventh chapter of Revelation to clear up this matter. We read at Revelation 11:7-10 concerning the activity of the "Two Witnesses" this:
"And when they [Two Witnesses] have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will make war with them and conquer them and kill them. And their corpses will be on the broad way of the great city which is in a spiritual sense called Sodom and Egypt. And those of the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their corpses for three and a half days, and they do not let their corpses be laid in a tomb. And those dwelling on the earth rejoice over them and enjoy themselves, and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those dwelling on the earth."
These verses contain some important clues to help us identify Babylon the Great. First, we notice that the Two Witnesses' ministry torment "those dwelling on the earth." Now, who is being "tormented" here, the world of over 5 billion plus? Hardly, since it would take a massive army indeed to reach so many people! From what we know of the coming "Two Witnesses" as mentioned in prophecy, they will prove to be a small army, by comparison. These "Two Witnesses," will be assigned the task of carrying out a particular ministry toward a particular people on earth today, and not the world in general. Yes, "judgment starts with the House of God." Therefore, their ministry is confined to these particular people, the "House of God." John himself was told at Revelation 11:1 to:
"Get up and measure the temple [sanctuary] of God and the altar and those worshipping in it."
Now, who would that be?
Well, who do you think would best represent:
(a) the temple or sanctuary,
(b) the altar,
(c) and those worshiping in it?
Again, before you answer that question, add to it this thought:
"they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months."
Again, who do you think would best fit this description?
Clearly, it has to be someone who is involved in "worship;" someone designated as the "holy city." Obviously, someone, although rendering sacred service to God, yet needing to be "measured." Does this not indicate the actual reason and need for a "42 month trampling" period? Jehovah does not exact punishment without there being a real cause, does He? (Please read Proverbs 26:2.) This description therefore, could fit no people better than the Jehovah's Witnesses as a nation!
Actually, whether they know it or not, Jehovah's Witnesses as an organization are directly tied into the prophetic drama! Because Babylon the Great will be proved to be, in the near future, clearly revealed to be, noneother than, the Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society, with its Governing Body, which presently leads 6 million clueless Jehovah's Witnesses, in some over 90,000 congregations worldwide. However, before we go any farther, let us make this important point:
The actual "fall" of Babylon the Great, which will ultimately lead to the GRAND EXODUS of numerous Jehovah's Witnesses as a nation in the not-to-distant future, still, has not yet occurred. It is a future event.
No, this particular "fall" that “Babylon the Great” will suffer, AKA Watchtower Society, is a future event, as the Bible shows.
Nevertheless, at this point, someone will say:
"Well, what about Christendom?" Why couldn't Christendom, as well the religions of pagandom, still prove to be the wicked "Babylon the Great," as the Watchtower Society has said?
Well, could you really say that, Christendom is a "holy city," in any way? Actually, Christendom in no way could be said to be a "holy city," or likened to the `city where the Lord was impaled,' Jerusalem. (Revelation 11:8) Neither could Christendom be said to be in a "covenant" relationship with Jehovah. And since they are not in a "covenant" relationship with Jehovah, neither could they be "acting wickedly AGAINST that covenant," the New Covenant instituted by Jesus Christ, at Pentecost of the first century. No, Jehovah would not make a "covenant" with someone who worships Jesus Christ, His Son. Christendom has been purely idolatrous from the start, 1700 years ago! (Daniel 11:30, 32) Further, those who are "worshipping" at the "temple" and "altar" are really "priests." Yes, Priests! Now, who could better fit this description than the "priests" or spiritual leaders at Brooklyn Headquarters, where the "altar" and "temple/sanctuary" are.
Let's notice verse 6 in the same chapter. It says:
"These [Two Witnesses] have the authority to shut up heaven that no rain should fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have authority over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every sort of plague as often as they wish."
Again, to whom is the attack of the "Two Witnesses" directed? To the world in general, the whole 6 billion inhabitants of this planet we call earth? Hardly! The word "earth" here must mean those who are a part of the organization that supports the "priestly" functions spoken of in verses 1 and 2.
Therefore the "kings of the earth" are really authority figures of the Watchtower Society. These would include Brooklyn Headquarters staff, Branch Overseers, Districts Overseers, and Circuit Overseers, world-wide. These ones will "commit fornication" with the woman by willingly supporting the Society in it's perverse and apostate actions of "placing the Beast" in the place where he "ought not be" — in the "holy place" or in the organization itself! They will comply and support the Watchtower Society when it gives full support to this filthy, political beast-like United Nations organization out of fear to save their `own hides.' -- Matthew 24:15, Mark 13:14, Revelation 21:8
These "kings" know full well what they are doing and they know exactly what the Watch Tower Society is doing. Yes, they willingly go along with the Society's adulterous antics, to mix politics with religion in dealing with the `Johnny come lately,' ruthless and oppressive "king of the North." ... a Future Event. (Daniel 11:32) These "kings of the earth" are the key men that help the Society maintain it's control over the international "many waters" where the woman sits on top as "queen" and "mother." -- Revelation 17:1,5,7,15
"SHE SITS AS A QUEEN"
Now, how many times have we as Jehovah's Witnesses heard the expression:
the "mother organization" or "mother Bethel?"
She is viewed almost the same way the Catholics view the "Virgin Mother Mary." How disgusting! How revolting! It is even blasphemous! And who are the main ones promulgating such viewpoints? Why, primary authority figures: Branch Overseers, District Overseers and Circuit Overseers, who else. And of course, the "kings of the earth" are said to enjoy "shameless luxury" just as does the woman. And in actuality, these "kings" really do reap the benefits in being authority figures for the Society, since their every need and want is taken care of by the "brothers" in the organization. They truly have become an "expensive burden" upon the brethren. (Please read 1 Thessalonians 2:9.) In America, the health care, dental care, clothing bill...and as we all know...they wear only the finest suits and use only the finest toiletries...items that really cost the "brothers" millions of dollars each year! We all know this, as Jehovah's Witnesses, do we not?
And what about their VEHICLES, yes, all of those expensive "Suburbans", only new ones will do...don't you remember, and also those expensive TRAVEL TRAILERS and APARTMENTS, which may cost the brothers, yes, the brothers, in some instances, in excess $50,000 or more EACH! It has been reported that, in one circuit, leading elders got together, over 50 of them, and personally purchased, a BUS MOTOR HOME, a bus, an expensive home on wheels, valued somewhere in the neighborhood of close to $250,000, and was privately presented as a "gift" to a Circuit Overseer in the USA. Amazing indeed!
Now, what kind of example, would such an individual be setting for the lowly pioneer brothers, he has to serve...is he imitating the example of Paul, as a Missionary? Is this even the attitude held out to Pioneers who have transportation problems?
Let's see. Lets notice this comment taken from the Watchtower magazine on the subject of "pioneering" despite obstacles with the all important "self-sacrificing" spirit that must be maintained. We chose this quote because it particularly deals with the question of "transportation" or lack of it. And we quote:
"If a car costs more than the pioneer can afford, why be forced to stop the pioneer ministry just to have a car? Many find it possible to pioneer even in rural territory without a car by traveling with others or using public transportation or riding a bicycle or just by walking. After all, Jesus did not have a car or even a bicycle to get around the territory where he preached, and much of it was rural territory. All in the full-time ministry, whether congregation publishers or pioneers, do well to cultivate the attitude of the apostle Paul, who said, `So, having sustenance and covering, we shall be content with these things.' (1 Timothy 6:8) Paul did not worry about getting a racing chariot to help him in his travels."
Did you get the point? The lowly "pioneer" is supposed to be self-sacrificing, no he does not need a car, even in rural territory! Yes, HE CAN WALK! — See 1971 Watchtower pgs. 337, 338 par. 13.
However, do we see any Traveling Overseer "walking" to his assignment like Jesus? Do we? Do we see any Branch Overseer, District Overseer or Bethel Elder, and heaven forbid, Governing Body member "walking" or `doing without' the same way that Jesus exemplified? Do we? (Matthew 8:20) What disgusting hypocrites they are! Are not the religious leaders of the Jehovah's Witnesses Organization just like the Pharisees of Jesus' day. Notice what Jesus said of them:
"Therefore all the things they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds, for they say but do not perform. They bind up heavy loads and put them upon the shoulders of men, but they themselves are not willing to budge them with their finger." Think about it. — Matthew 23:3, 4

In fact, most, (with very few exceptions) could not with a clear conscience, say as did Paul:
"I have coveted no man's silver or gold or apparel. You yourselves know that these hands have attended to the needs of me and of those with me." — Acts 20:33, 34
Yes, Paul worked with his "own hands" to attend to the needs of himself and those in his company. No, Traveling Overseer (Circuit or District) or penthouse-dwelling, yes, no PATTERSON ESTATE-DWELLING, Bethelite can really say this, can they? Yes, the Grand, Lavish Patterson Estate, yes, this entire estate which was built with the brothers HARD EARNED MONEY, from all around the world, yes, this estate, which could easily be valued at some 200 MILLION DOLLARS! Yes, some 200 million dollars – easily comparible to the Bible’s description of the “LUXURIOUS," LAVISH-LIVING of “Queen,” Babylon the Great herself. Who can deny this? She clearly lives lavishly, as the bible said she would. And other live lavishly with her too…just as the Bible predicted about her… Who hasn’t heard of “Patterson-Estate,” the Great Education Center for Jehovah’s Witnesses. But is it a real education center, or what? And whose being “educated,” anyway? What is the real purpose of building such Lavish surrounding? Who gets to live there?
Really, as you know, only the “higher ups” from Bethel, the high officials at Bethel Headquarters…get to live there…not he common laborer. No, but the “LUXURY,” the true “luxury-living,” is only reserved for these “Kingly” Bethelites whose apartments could be valued in the thousands of dollars per residence, while many of our brothers are living as indigents, in total poverty, in many parts of the earth…in some instances, not able to even afford collectively a kingdom hall between.
Case in Point: It has been revealed, thru the pages of the Watchtower Magazine itself, that some FIFTY (50) Congregations in Maputo City (Mozambique) are struggling to build ONE SINGLE KINGDOM HALL, that’s one kingdom hall, BETWEEN THEM. – See August 15, 1992 Watchtower pg. 24. Par. # 1
Now, how do you explain such a situation existing, when brothers are denoting money, constantly denoting money by way of the “Kingdom Hall Building Fund,” – how can you explain such a sitation developing…and pouring close to 200 MILLION DOLLARS in the Patterson-Estate facility (when you consider costly time denoted, materials, labor and other factors), and reserving it ONLY, yes only for the "Heavies," as they are called, the "Higher Ups" at Bethel?
How can any sincere Jehovah's Witness, explain this?
Is this not living in “luxury” on the part of the Watch Tower Society? The Bible says “she lives in SHAMELESS LUXURY,” that’s “shameless luxury”…she has no “shame” at all about how she lives and how see uses the money…while the brothers suffer…do we not see this with our very eyes today? What do you say? – See Revealtion 18:3, 7, 9.
Actually, what Branch Committee Overseer, District Overseer, Circuit Overseer, with very few exceptions, which one on the Watchtower Society’s payroll, worldwide can say what Paul did with a clear conscience, as mentioned below:
"I have coveted no man's silver or gold or apparel. You yourselves know that these hands have attended to the needs of me and of those with me." — Acts 20:33, 34
And also:
“For I do not mean for it to be easy for others, but hard on you; but that by means of an equalizing your surplus just now might offset their deficiency, in order that their surplus might also come to offset your deficiency, that an equalizing might take place. Just as it is written: “The person with much did not have too much, and the person with little did not have too little.” – 2 Corinthians 8:14, 15
Do you think the WTS wishes to follow the counsel of Paul, when it comes to money, sharing money, yes millions of dollars that have been denoted to them? Is the WTS interested in an “offsetting of deficiency” among our poorer, less fortunate brothers, the inspired writer Paul, clearly recommended? Are they interested an “equalizing” of finances, say for example, in Maputo, Mozambique, Africa, and other poorer lands where financial help could be put to good use?
Or, would the WTS rather, continue to live in “SHAMELESS LUXURY,” in the GRAND PATTERSON-ESTATE? Which?
Which pursuit is “closer to the heart,” of the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses? An “Equalizing,” an “offsetting of deficiencies” among the brotherhood worldwide, … or “LUXURIOUS,” lavish living for themselves…which?
We know the answer, don’t we? Indeed, all of the lavish-living, the “shameless luxury,” you see today, tell the story all too clearly. A person would have be clearly insane to say otherwise. The facts are right before our very eyes. All the “Shameless Luxury,” the Lavish-living you see by the “Kings of the Earth,” come from monies, funds, donated, yes contributed from the brothers worldwide, in one form or another. And these funds are clearly misappropriated. And it is done in a “shameless” fashion, without even trying to hide it. And whats worse, only the future will tell just how extravagant they will become in their pursuit of "luxury" after `climbing upon the back' of the [political] "beast" organization…yes, just after Spring of 2003. (Revelation 17:3)
MDS
"...At him kings will shut their mouth, because what had not been recounted to them they will actually see, and to what they had not heard they must turn their consideration...Who has put faith in the thing heard by us?..." [/i]-- Isaiah 52:15-53:1