Hi ISP:
Happy to make your acquaintance.
You have asked a couple of very good questions. Two good questions, that I feel have not been correctly answered. You asked,
Do we need a "faithful and Discreet Slave? ... Does anyone see the need to be associated with a congregation as indicated in Revelation?
And the correct answer to both questions would be, YES!
ISP, when people cannot explain something, they tend to mitigate its importance...explain it away as being meaningless...of no consequence.
But, keep in mind...The FD&S as mentioned by Jesus at Matt. 24:45 and the congregational arrangements of Revelation 1:20, all come out of the Bible itself. They are to be viewed, and rightly so, as Divinely Instituted Arrangements!
Arrangements instituted by God Himself. These cannot be discarded or discounted as being of no value, by no human, period. Perhaps, unintentionally, or even intentionally, still either way, this has occurred, as shown by some comments on this board.
But we must remember, some of us, are in a state of complete CONFUSION! It appears we don't know if we are "coming" or "going," or our "left hand from the right." So, because of resulting "problems", and total Biblical "confusion" about these resulting "problems" and a lack of "solutions" apparent, some among God's people, Jehovah's Witnesses, will conjure up strange ideas... Thus, the "counsel" we see you have received above by the most, and the answers you have received to your question from the majority here.
To answer your two question,
... Yes, the FD&S (Matt. 24:45) and congregational arrangment (Revelation 1:20), BOTH represent true provisions from God, that sometimes, man, yes, pollutes, corrupts...I'm referring now specifically to the Governing Body of our day. Still, these are nevertheless, Godly arrangements from God. And they are not bad in themselves, since they actually came from God and Jesus. No more than the Mosiac Law was bad in itself. Humans just couldn't follow them perfectly...but the Law was not bad, in itself. It was the "leaders," the Pharisees and others, who were bad...who polluted the Godly arrangement of the Mosiac Law, and brought on God's wrath upon the entire nation of Israel for their repeated "disobedience" to it. The leaders did this.
Still, these Godly arrangements, are taught in Holy Scripture...and so cannot be thought of as being bad, or worthless at any time. They cannot either, be discarded by humans, viewed as "trivial," or being worthless, being of no account. They must be recognized as Godly arrangements before Jehovah God. Arrangements that must be adhered to, if we are remain in God's favor.
Today, we are not authorized by Jehovah to put these arrangement down with, with word or deed, no more than we can speak against the Mosiac Law Covenant itself of years gone by. Only Jehovah can discard the Mosiac Law, and say we are in need of another Covenant, the Christian one. Jehovah does that, only He makes that determination. We cannot discard anything, nor make such a determination, within ourselves. He has not given us that responsibility. We are not the "Head" of the christians congregational arrangement, but Jesus Christ is.
Actually, even today, these Divine provisions are still largely misunderstood at present. Mistakes have been made, that have resulted in harm to many within the congregational setting of Jehovah's Witnesses today. These "problems" must be corrected.
For example, the "Elder Arrangement" itself, as enacted since 1971, presently active among Jehovah's Witnesses, is still, not completely scripturally, and not totally meeting up to God's standards. Decisions made are that are wrong. Leadership is skewed, judgment faulty. And those who are making the policies for present day Jehovah's witnesses, must be removed, as they are NOT spiritually qualified for any leadership purposes at all. This is a problem that Almighty God must resolve, along with the Head of the christian congregation, Jesus Christ Himself.
Still, the idea or the concept of a congregational arrangement, is divinely instituted, Divinely Ordained by God Himself and Bible-Based...rooted in the scriptures. And Jesus stands behind this arrangement, as the "head" of the congregation of God. The arrangement is established by Jehovah Himself, and cannot be dissolved by man, without God's approval.
Therefore, we must deal with the situation, the problematic situation, because christians, footstep followers of Jesus, are thus, bound to any Divine Arrangement God sets up....bound to it.
2 Tim. 2:19, 20 clearly indicates that within the congregational settings, spiritual "problems" can develop, resulting in some "vessels", ones who are "not of an honorable use," satanic "vessels" even, to be expected and can be present within such a Godly Arrangement.
And if it gets worse, as it has in our day, ... If and when, Satan is so successful in making corruption go as high as the Governing Body, as it has in our day, then we must wait upon Jehovah God and Jesus to bring about the real "solution." -- See Matt. 13:41
These are the "circumstances" we find ourselves in today. But, it was that way when Jesus came. The entire spiritual nation was corrupt...all the way up to the top. The Pharisees, Sadducees, the top spiritual leaders, in the lead, as today, our modern-day "Pharisees," are in the lead of the Jehovah's Witnesses, God's Name People. Wicked men. The Governing Body. Clearly wicked.
But God will handle the situation. Even though Satan may plant a "false god" within God's own temple, as he has, still, the problem will handled, dealt with by the Creator himself. If Satan reaches that high...God deals with it, in His own way. In such cases, we must avoid "idolatry" at all costs. We must do what God requires of us. If they are polluting God's Own Temple. God will Judge. -- 2 Thess. 2:3-12; Rev. 11:1-3
Jehovah has many "options."
For example, if Jehovah decides to "release" us, from "captivity," ... from the WTS, the entire congregation itself...if He desires for our "exodus" from the congregational setting, escape from "Babylon," (Rev. 18:4) then, He will be the One to do the delivering. He sends "Cyrus" for that. Jesus has done this before. Rescued us from one Godly Arrangement, and delivered us to another. This can be done. God can do this. No problem for Him.
But still, until that time, that God Himself does the delivering, we must be patience. We must keep the faith. Jesus said,
"when Son of man arrives, will he really find the faith on the earth." -- Luke 18:8
We must keep this attitude, at all times, as christians.
Remember, the congregational arrangement is a Divine institution. No one can usurp its authority, overturn it, downgrade it. No one can NULLIFY its rightful place in worship of God, that has put before us, as christians. Only God can do this. -- Hebrews 10:24, 25
We remember, that each congregation, has "Gifts in men," from God Himself, and Jesus Christ. These are spiritual leaders, divinely appointed to take the lead among us, that must yes indeed, "answer", that's ANSWER to God and Jesus for what they have done. (Please note Eph. 4:8; 1 Tim. 5:24, 25) This fact cannot be belittled by anyone who "knows their God." If such did not exist, then, how else, could we explain such scriptures, as 1 Thess. 5:12, 13; 1 Tim. 5:17. How?
If God's People were not supposed to be under a congregational setting as described above, then, how do we as christian followers of Jesus explain those verses?
Yes, How could such be even, possible? How?
It could be not be possible.
Your example of the 7 congregations of Rev. 2nd and 3rd chapters, give tremendous "evidence," scriptural evidence, that God's People should be organized, into a Godly congregational arrangement. And the sinning we find present in our day by the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, DOES NOT NEGATE this evidence. So your scriptures that you cited, are applied correctly and you have reasoned correctly too. -- Rev. 1:20
Contrary to what you have been advised above by the majority, (but not all, just some), has to be viewed as totally, unscriptural. It represents "the thoughts" and ideas "of man, and not the higher, thoughts of God." -- See Mark 8:33
The Bible clearly shows us that the way Jehovah God, settles problems, problems like false teachings, false prophecies, false chronologies, false dates, 1914, 1975, and other things, all taught among God's Own His people, things the Bible says are spiritual "leaven," before Jehovah God...Jehovah solves with DISCIPLINE to His People. -- See Matt. 16:12; Jer. 23:19, 20
So, what will Jehovah do about this "situation"? This "leaven" in His House?
He will handle this problem by severe "discipline," Godly administered discipline upon His Own People, just as any loving father would do for His children. -- See Hebrews 12:5-11.
God will solve the problem.
So, Jehovah God will handle all problems associated with the congregation of Jehovah witnesses, aka modern-day "Israel," of Bible prophecy with "loving discipline," as His Word clearly indicates. He will firstly, chastise them, and then, later clean them up and build them up into a "mighty nation, just as Micah 4:6,7 and Isa. 30:26 clearly indicate. It is clear. Jehovah will "judge" His people. -- 1 Peter 4:17
So, Jehovah God and Jesus will always have a congregation, an arrangement to keep the "sheep" together. We will always be grouped together, sheep with sheep, everlastingly, into a congregational setting, as you mentioned in citing Revelation 1:20.
Remember, when the wicked shepherd "scatters the sheep," ... what did God Himself promise...?
To leave them all abandoned! No.
Jehovah promised at Ezekiel 34:16:
"The lost one [literally "perishing one" Ref. Bib. fnt] I shall SEARCH FOR, and the dispersed one I shall bring back, and the broken one I shall bandage and the ailing one I shall strengthen, but the fat one and the strong one I shall ANNIHILATE. I shall feed that one with judgment."
Jehovah judges His people. Rewards one, "judges" another..."searches" for any "lost" from that number.
Jehovah will gather his sheep, that's gather, gather, put them together, in a congregational setting. This has never changed. No matter what the WTS, Governing Body, or anyone else does...
Also, Jesus said at Luke 14:4-6:
"What man of you with a hundred sheep, on losing one of them, will notleave the ninety-nine behind in the wilderness and go for the lost one until he finds it? And when he has found it he puts it upon his shoulders and rejoices. And when he gets home he calls his friends and his neighbors together, saying to them, Rejoice with me, because I have found my sheep that was lost."
Jehovah and Jesus are dedicated to "finding the lost sheep," and BRINGING THEM BACK INTO THE FOLD. That is, if that is the desire of the lost sheep, thats if it is their desire...no one is forced back. That point is clear too.
So then, you see, we will always be a congregated people, always, so the Bible says. -- Rev. 7:9
I hope this has answered your question.
Take Care,
MDS
Edited by - MDS on 11 January 2001 23:53:33
