Posts by MDS

83

God Changing Chosen Peoples

by eyes_opened in

jw
friends

my huband posed something to me yesterday that i had never even thought of before.

he said, wouldn't it be possible that if a group <ie.

jehovahs witnesses> fell out of gods favor, what would stop him from choosing another group?

MDS

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES -- DESTINED TO FALL BY WAY OF DISCIPLINE FROM GOD'S OWN HAND, AND LATER TO BE RESTORED TO GOD'S FAVOR, AGAIN BY GOD'S OWN HAND

The following prophecy will be fulfilled upon JWs as a nation. It is Micah 4:6,7.

They are to be considered "modern-day Israel" of Bible prophecy...Jehovah's Witnesses as a nation.

The Bible, prophecy reveals that they are to be "Disciplined" for past "sins," as fully enumerated upon this board, over and over again... God has decreed for them to be disciplined, severely. [Discipline is most severe during a "42 month" period intense persecution, followed by a period of "recuperation."]

Afterwhich, the "remnant" of JWs will be "saved" from their predicament as only God can "save"...and then "Restored" to God's favor.

During this period of "persecution," where the "woman," is chased to the "wilderness," she will be without formal worship. She will become a cast off, or enter a spiritual condition indicated by the expression: "Lo-ammi" as spoken of thru the prophet "Hosea" -- a "disowned" state from God, much like a "disfellowshiping" of them for a specific period of time. She has "disfellowshiped" many from her organization -- now, Jehovah returns the favor. He "disfellowships" her the organization, into a the "fallen status of ill-repute...likened to the ones among her number she reprimanded, chastised...disciplined. Those formerly of her number whom said was not worthy to carry this Great and Lofty Name of God upon themselves as a nation. She cast them off. God does this to her, for her many Sins. It will be a world-wide condition, a worldwide situation.

The Discipline will be great, intense.

Not all JWs will survive this intense ordeal and discipline of God. During this time, the WTS will under intense pressure, cowardly give in to the threats of the political nations, and compromise their faith officially, by willingly receiving the "mark of the beast." Most JWs will follow suit...approximately "two-thirds" will lose God's favor permanently by receiving the "mark of the beast."

With, approximately, 1/3 left, who will bravely attempt to "tough it out," and endure the pressures from the political nations, in the wilderness. They will refuse to receive the "mark of the beast." They will have to bear the brunt of the situation. But they will come out of the "test" situation, worldwide persecution, as refined "silver" and "gold" in God's eyes. -- See Zech. 13: 8,9; Micah 7:7-9

Afterwhich, she is "restored" to God's favor and now allowed for the first time, to fully administrate the "Abrahamic Covenant," as a "Priestly" nation (Exodus 19:6; Isa. 61:6), to all OTHER NATIONS of the globe...billions will be saved under this arrangement. -- See Micah 4:1-4; Isa. 2:2-4; Rev. 22:17

THE NEEDED DISCIPLINE COMES FROM GOD, by allowing the nations of the earth to overrun Jehovah's Witnesses, worldwide, for a specific period of time.

Micah 4:6,7 says of this particular situation:

"In that day, is the utterance of Jehovah, I will gather her that was LIMPING; and her that was DISPERSED I will collect together, even her WHOM I HAVE TREATED BADLY. And I shall certainly make her that was limping a REMNANT, and her that was removed far off [cast off; removed from God's sight] a MIGHTY NATION, and Jehovah will actually rule as king over them in Mount Zion, FROM NOW ON AND INTO TIME INDEFINITE."

This will be an EVERLASTING arrangement, with all of their "sins," now being "atoned for," and an "EVERLASTING COVENANT" now being given to them...for ever more. -- Ezekiel 16:59-63

Remember, the nation of "Israel," JWS, are FIRST DISCIPLINED by God, [it is He that is letting the nations pounce on the organization, he allows the persecution..the "42 months of trampling" ... He allows it. -- Rev. 13:5-7

and then AFTER THE DISCIPLINE allowed by God...that's allowed by God...

...then He [God] makes the same nation, the one that was "limping" from His Great Discipline, He [God] now makes them into A MIGHTY NATION...Jehovah RESTORES them to His favor...that's the scenio... -- See also Isa. 30:26

This particularly scripture, the prophecy of Micah 4:6,7, as mentioned above HAS NOT been fulfilled as of yet. It will be fulfilled upon "Israel," modern-day Israel of our day, Jehovah's Witnesses.

MDS

Edited by - MDS on 24 January 2001 1:37:39

83

God Changing Chosen Peoples

by eyes_opened in

jw
friends

my huband posed something to me yesterday that i had never even thought of before.

he said, wouldn't it be possible that if a group <ie.

jehovahs witnesses> fell out of gods favor, what would stop him from choosing another group?

MDS

Pronuncing God's Name...who can do this correctly...or, is it so, no one really can...in God's eyes.

No one can in God's eyes...is that so?

I'll tell you who can do this, and do this, .... completely to God's satisfaction...but FIRST, you've got to believe, the bible, every word of it, to come to know who can really pronounce God's Name.

If you don't believe the Bible, then I'm wasting my time.

But even if this answer does not suffice, it will help finally, help others... to prevent them from asking such a STUPID QUESTION...

ANSWER:

"And it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God, to BLASPHEME HIS NAME and his residence..." -- Revelation 13:6

What did the "Wild Beast" Do?

What?

The Bible says, God's Infallible Word, tells us that the "Wild Beast," will BLASPHEME GOD'S NAME.

How do you think they are able to do such, without being able to PRONOUNCE it?

Any ideas...How?

Clearly, the "Wild beast," will according to God's Own Word, God, Jehovah says, they will sufficiently be able to "blaspheme His Name," "God's Name," to such an extent, that EVIDENTLY Jehovah is INFURIATED by their actions. Why does God Himself, say they are "blaspheming HIS GLORIOUS Name?" .... Why?

They must be able to pronounce it, utter it...sufficiently, to God's recollection, to His Awareness, enough to INFURIATE HIM... God says. His statement on the matter. So guess what, somebody does know how to pronounce it...the "wild beast," when God's Name People, are disciplined by the political nations, who "trample them" under foot for some "42 months." -- Revelation 13:5

Think about it.

MDS

Edited by - MDS on 23 January 2001 18:37:30

31

Too much spiritual food? Too much faith?

by ianao in

jw
friends

hello all.. this is a quote from an earlier conversation in the 1975 thread.. are you saying that the garden was weeded from those who put too much faith in "god's spirit-directed organization"?

did these people listen to too much of their "food at the proper time"?.

unfortunately, i never received a response from smartgirlpw, only insults of "boo boos" and truth hurting.. i would like to know if you personally (yes, i am asking for your opinion here, your pearls, or two cents) believe that you should not take very seriously what is stated in the wt publications, and if so, or even if not, please explain.. this was my original question before i lashed out at you for claiming we were having a pitty party and you began to lash out at me, java, pathofthorns, trevor, etc.

MDS

Larc,

I will be happy to answer the question posed, when someone else poses it...someone sincere. So pay attention, when someone asks, who knows, I may answer it, on some different thread.

To "RedHorseWoman," "Ianao," & Company, (a few more that need naming) You guys and gals ought to "chill,"...really.

You people, are simply intolerate of other peoples opinions, just like the people you soooo condemn, the Watchtower Society and its Governing Body. This board here, is the proof. The "proof," is right before you.

When someone disagrees with you people, when things they say just don't jive with you own lofty "opinions,"... how do you react?

How do you react?

...you CHIDE...MAKE FUN OF....DERIDE...RIDICULE... over and over again.

You are not "scientific" at all to your approach to anything you haven't heard before...new ideas. No, You just condemn it!

The board is the "proof," ... simple.

So, don't get mad with me. Your venting anger at me doesn't intimidate me at all. I would think by now, you would know that...the length of time I've been here...disagreeing with you the whole way. Using the Bible prove to my points the whole way.

You say I'm looking for "disciples." Maybe...but more importantly, maybe I'm looking for individuals WHO LOVE TRUTH. Ever heard of that? This is a lot more important than having a few "disciples," following after one, just for the purpose of "following." That's ridiculous. "Truth," real "truth," is our quest. It should be yours too.

Why won't you let the Bible have the LAST WORD? Why? There is no one among you that can use it...no one.

I put up a lengthy post, much to your chagrin... a scritural post, a scriptural position.

Do you come back "other" scriptures, like Jesus did to the "Devil,"...if I am wrong, take the Bible and REFUTE me, like Jesus did the Devil on the Mountain.

Don't ridicule, deride, chide, call me "waco fool," and so on... is that all you can do? Say things, like if the the people listen to me, they are headed for "death," following "David Koresh,"...where's your proof...where is it?

You people cannot use God's Word to condemn me... you've proved nothing by using the scriptures...nothing.

The whole lot of you, COMBINED cannot refute nothing I've written, nothing. You are completely "ignorant" when comes to the Word of God. And for that, you need to be completely condemned, for attacking one that relies and uses God's Word to "set matters straight." Something you know nothing about.

Intimidation is something you tried on me. You tried it on "Smartgirlpw" and will try it on any who disagrees with your foolish and nonsensical notions. Non-Biblical ones.

Someone even had the ridiculous notion to tell me to quit quoting Scriptures from God's Word. What a foolish statement.

Admittedly, when I spoke, you did try to intimidate me, just as you tried to intimidate "Smartgirlpw," when she spoke her mind, and said you guys was having a "pity-party." She noted that you were swallowed up in your self-pity. She made the observation, and you guys and gals couldn't stand it.

She saw, she didn't "fit in" to your neat, little "group" here. Your nasty little "comments," your "observations" of her, berated, and belittled her for even having an opinion different from your own. You wanted her to either LEAVE (like you own the board or something, a public board mind you,) or either CONFORM, like so many others who are indeed, afraid of you, and are intimidated by your "actions," your opinions and viewpoints. I am not one of them. Neither is "Smartgirlpw"...

But, for her own, peace of mind, She chose to leave. And that's fine if she wants to do this. That's fine for her. Perhaps, she will find "friends" that will more tolerate of her views on a different board, even if they have differing viewpoints from others...even if there is "corrective" counsel in her viewpoints, adjustments that we all need to make. Still, she will be accepted by others. She knows this. -- 2 Tim. 3:16, 17

But, in my case I decided not to leave. I didn't leave. And because of this...other "lovers of truth," will continue to listen too. That's the way Jehovah works...in case you didn't know.

And there is nothing that man can do, with all of his "wicked antics", and oppressive ways and tricks of intimidation, as demonstrated on this board, time and time again, still nothing that man can do, to stop truth. You just can't stop it...you know.

MDS

83

God Changing Chosen Peoples

by eyes_opened in

jw
friends

my huband posed something to me yesterday that i had never even thought of before.

he said, wouldn't it be possible that if a group <ie.

jehovahs witnesses> fell out of gods favor, what would stop him from choosing another group?

MDS

Hi "eyes opened":

Your husband's comments are absolutely right. And it seems, more and more are beginning to see this point as being a VALID possibility, and possible "solution" to the WTS dilemma, the resolution to the "Wts situation."

Scriptures such as Matt. 21:43, Matt. 22:9,Matt. 8:11, 12, and Romans 11:25, 26 all confirm this idea. It is a Bible-based thought.

It seems that "Smartgirlpw" has already raised the "possibility" of such actions upon God's part, in another post under another thread. I will post the thread below.

But simply stated, God's Name People, Jehovah's Witnesses, are such, God's Chosen People because they have been ALLOWED BY GOD, to carry His Great and Holy Name upon themselves. -- See Number 6:27; Deut. 28:10; 2 Chron. 7:14; Daniel 9:19.

(1) They STARTED the "Divine Name" Movement, as history tells us, in the year of 1931. No one, no religion had done this before them, as history tells us. They started it.

(2) They are the ONLY INTERNATIONAL GROUP, truly international in scope, comparatively speaking of any note, in the Divine Name movement realm...no one, no group is so international in scope. No other Divine-Name group comes even close in covering the earth...geographically speaking.

(3) And they are clearly, the LARGEST, of such size, some 6 million by count of such size, in the "Divine Name" movement.

No, other group is more intimately associated with the Name of God, as a people, than "Jehovah's Witnesses," earthwide. In many areas, they are simply knows as those "jehova" people. They stand for God's Name. They are known by it, closely associated to it, more so, than any other religious group on earth.

They are God's Name People.

Many JWs even doubt this, because of witnessing the prevalent cases of wrongdoing, misbehavior among them. Particularly the higher ups. But even so, in this way, they resemble ancient "Israel," whose religious leaders were clearly, grossly wicked and oppressive...the Pharisee, and Sadduccees.

Some of those who doubt, have been greatly influenced by ex-Governing Body member RV Franz who states his personal beliefs in his books, "Crisis of Conscience," and "In Search of Christian Freedom", stating that Jehovah's Witnesses are nothing more than any other religion on earth today, simply a cult. This is his opinion.

But there are some among Jehovah's Witnesses, that differ with this opinion. Many know that to carry God's Divine Name upon themselves, is a God-Given Privilege. So, then, privilege must be granted, from God. In turn, if granted this privilege, God would in turn, grant them a Covenant-Relationship with Him, and would expect such ones to "live up to then Name," as one of song being sang at the Kingdom Hall, says. This is a requirement from God. Sad to say, today, they are not measuring up to the requirements of this same God-given Covenant Relationship. -- Daniel 11:30

Still, the bible tells us, that if God's Name People, should go astray for any reason, and violates the terms of that special Covenant arrangement, God would be duty bound, and fully justified in administering Godly "Discipline," upon them as a nation. -- 1 Kings 8:33-53.

This God, will do, according to Bible prophecy. The Bible is clear. God will do this for the sake of the Holy Name, and NOT for the sakes of the wicked and loathsome Watchtower Society, Corporate headquarters or even the rank and file, among them. This, He does Only, only, for His Own Name sake.

Ezekiel 36:22 says:

"Therefore say to the house of Israel, This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: Not for your sakes am I doing it it, O house of Israel, but for my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have come. And I shall certainly SANCTIFY MY GREAT NAME, which was being profaned among the nations, which you profaned in themidst of them; and the nations will have to know that I am Jehovah, is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah..."

God's saving actions toward His people, is only done, because of His Great and Holy Name is at stake. That's the only reason.

Here is the post where additional comments were made on this possibility, your husband has raised.

---posted under thread "too much faith, too much spiritual food"----

Hi "Smartgirlpw",

I believe, through that faith, He is using the appointed organization from which we all learned about Jehovah(usually)and that if and when He decides that THEY are wicked or not doing His will, then He will once again turn attention to another group...as He did in the past when the Jews rejected His son by demanding his impalement and by their statement as a group,"We have no King, but Ceasar!" in response to Pilate's Q-"Do you want me to kill your King?" (re Jesus was claimed to be King of the Jews.)

Insightful comment indeed. You said:

"...if and when He decides that THEY are wicked or not doing His Will, then He will once again turn attention to another group..."

I know you don't believe that this will really happen, and that the WTS is not quite THAT BAD and all. But, this is exactly the situation we are facing...exactly! They really are that wicked!

So, you have reached the "correct" conclusion by a process of "logical deduction of known possibilities," as found in the Holy Scriptures. They are that wicked...when you really examine the situation.

This is the solution.

Now, from what I understand, there is NO FURTHER PROPHECY IN THAT REGARD, namely that Jehovah's appointment of the "Nations being taken out as a people for His name...." would somehow deviate from His will to conduct the flock, love it as Jesus did,etc. There is, however, Scriptural basis for the prediction of "the love of the greater number cooling off" in our time, hence to correspond with a thread I read before re the large number of those who have left or were thrust out,of which I myself am a part of.

Oh, but there are...a number of prophecies...a number of them, that show precisely what you have said above. A great number of prophecies.

You are very, very close to the real "truth" of this matter...

Regarding the many "sins" of the "false prophet" WTS, the only one that prophesies falsely in the Name of God on earth today, regarding 1914, 1975 and many other false dates and false teachings, the following verses are most appropos.

Deuteronomy 28:58, 63 says:

"If you will not take care to CARRY OUT ALL THE WORDS OF THIS LAW that are written in this book so as to fear this glorious and fear-inspiring name, even Jehovah, your God...And it must occur that just as Jehovah exulted over you to do you good and to multiply you, so JEHOVAH WILL EXULT OVER YOU TO DESTROY YOU AND TO ANNIHILATE YOU ; and you will simply be torn away from off the soil to which you are going to take possession of it."

These words are still, just as true as when they were spoken many years ago.

God does not change. These verses apply to the JWs as a nation, the nation of "Israel" of Bible prophecy.

Take Care,

MDS

Edited by - MDS on 23 January 2001 10:48:27

---------------end of post----------

Take Care,

MDS

Edited by - MDS on 23 January 2001 18:51:6

31

Too much spiritual food? Too much faith?

by ianao in

jw
friends

hello all.. this is a quote from an earlier conversation in the 1975 thread.. are you saying that the garden was weeded from those who put too much faith in "god's spirit-directed organization"?

did these people listen to too much of their "food at the proper time"?.

unfortunately, i never received a response from smartgirlpw, only insults of "boo boos" and truth hurting.. i would like to know if you personally (yes, i am asking for your opinion here, your pearls, or two cents) believe that you should not take very seriously what is stated in the wt publications, and if so, or even if not, please explain.. this was my original question before i lashed out at you for claiming we were having a pitty party and you began to lash out at me, java, pathofthorns, trevor, etc.

MDS

Hi Smartgirlpw:

I understand you are leaving the board. I find this sad, since I did not personally get the opportunity to say anything to you since your stay has been so brief.

So, let me take this opportunity then, to say for the "record," that I would hope you will re-consider, and decide to stay. I find your posts, to be genuine, clear, and certainly outspoken as far as statements are made here on this forum. You've made thought provoking statements, that NEEDED TO BE MADE, to "reach" reality. These "statements," may have offended some, but inadvertently they have revealed, and identified a "serious" problem on this board. Like in grade school, and even in WTS LAND, PEER PRESSURE...conformity. A "subjective" viewpoint on all things...the norm, must be tolerated at all times.

Not so...the argument can be "subjective," or it can be "objective." Your arguments are "objective," ... but your opponents are always "subjective," in their presentations of their "side of the issues," at stake. They are the majority. But the marjority can be wrong.

Maybe you were right, all along.

The "objective" side, the logical side, is always the better one. Yours is based upon "fact."

All you need, is just, a "few more facts," to add to you what you already have... and presto, you are there!

You expected one "reaction," and got another. One that showed no understanding, of your Bible based position. The majority was relentless. They have one "agenda." DESTROY THE WT...that's there only agenda too. God doesn't enter the picture at all. What He thinks, what He has said in His word...they will have none of that...

Many here are friends of, or current JWs, inactive JWs, ex-JWs, and even NON JWs (not baptized). Many are filled with hatred for the Watchtower Society. BLIND HATRED...Many of them. And when you hate, you CAN'T THINK. And when you are "blind," you can't think. You can't reason. You don't consult the Scriptures, for an "impartial" viewpoint. You don't want the facts, anymore. You want retribution!

That's the problem of many, many here.

When one, becomes "emotional," consumed in your hatred and extreme dislike for the WTS...You are no longer thinking anymore.

So, they just react,... no thought at all...just react. So, when someone like yourself, verbalizes something the "MAJORITY" isn't accustomed to hearing, something they find distasteful, corrective counsel for majority, they invariably LASH OUT! There is no thought to it...they are like the "mindless" mob that ATTACKS anything they "can't understand." They are intolerant of the others thoughts and actions....like the KKK, then, too the WTS mentality too, when you get to know them as I do. But its all in that same vein.

Intolerate of others ideas and thoughts...even if it is based upon the Bible itself. -- 2 Tim. 3:16

I've noticed they have been doing this for a while now...Actually, such actions, then, serves to intimidate most. That's why they do this.

So, when you came on and began to speak your mind, immediately you were greatly sanctioned for it. But you didn't back down, still, you made your point.

That is admirable.

Your comments showed insight, as I mentioned above in my one and only post to you above. Your comments demonstrated something very lacking on this board. Very lacking. You demonstrated a complete "faith" in Jehovah.

You stated above, no matter the "problem," with the organization, thats in the organization or out, regardless of the supposed F&DS or not, still ... Jehovah can solve the situation. God is the important one here. Not the WTS.

Now, that takes faith to say this..yes, even better to believe it.

You also said that Jehovah can "reject" this nation, if need be, if wickedness continues to prevail from the higher ups...so God is not without, certain "options," if he so chooses.

I think you have said a lot. You stand for what you believe. And you are not the follower, a "Yes-person". You don't just go along with the "majority," the crowd. Just because "they" say it, you don't have to "go along to get along." You've amply demonstrated that.

We need more "sisters" and "brothers," "real spiritual persons," like yourself on this board.

I for one, hope you will re-consider, and stay.

Take Care,

MDS

Edited by - MDS on 23 January 2001 16:24:49

31

Too much spiritual food? Too much faith?

by ianao in

jw
friends

hello all.. this is a quote from an earlier conversation in the 1975 thread.. are you saying that the garden was weeded from those who put too much faith in "god's spirit-directed organization"?

did these people listen to too much of their "food at the proper time"?.

unfortunately, i never received a response from smartgirlpw, only insults of "boo boos" and truth hurting.. i would like to know if you personally (yes, i am asking for your opinion here, your pearls, or two cents) believe that you should not take very seriously what is stated in the wt publications, and if so, or even if not, please explain.. this was my original question before i lashed out at you for claiming we were having a pitty party and you began to lash out at me, java, pathofthorns, trevor, etc.

MDS

Hi "Smartgirlpw",

I believe, through that faith, He is using the appointed organization from which we all learned about Jehovah(usually)and that if and when He decides that THEY are wicked or not doing His will, then He will once again turn attention to another group...as He did in the past when the Jews rejected His son by demanding his impalement and by their statement as a group,"We have no King, but Ceasar!" in response to Pilate's Q-"Do you want me to kill your King?" (re Jesus was claimed to be King of the Jews.)

Insightful comment indeed. You said:

"...if and when He decides that THEY are wicked or not doing His Will, then He will once again turn attention to another group..."

I know you don't believe that this will really happen, and that the WTS is not quite THAT BAD and all. But, this is exactly the situation we are facing...exactly! They really are that wicked!

So, you have reached the "correct" conclusion by a process of "logical deduction of known possibilities," as found in the Holy Scriptures. They are that wicked...when you really examine the situation.

This is the solution.

Now, from what I understand, there is NO FURTHER PROPHECY IN THAT REGARD,

namely that Jehovah's appointment of the "Nations being taken out as a people for His name...." would somehow deviate from His will to conduct the flock, love it as Jesus did,etc. There is, however, Scriptural basis for the prediction of "the love of the greater number cooling off" in our time, hence to correspond with a thread I read before re the large number of those who have left or were thrust out,of which I myself am a part of.

Oh, but there are...a number of prophecies...a number of them, that show precisely what you have said above. A great number of prophecies.

You are very, very close to the real "truth" of this matter...

Regarding the many "sins" of the "false prophet" WTS, the only one that prophesies falsely in the Name of God on earth today, regarding 1914, 1975 and many other false dates and false teachings, the following verses are most appropos.

Deuteronomy 28:58, 63 says:

"If you will not take care to CARRY OUT ALL THE WORDS OF THIS LAW that are written in this book so as to fear this glorious and fear-inspiring name, even Jehovah, your God...And it must occur that just as Jehovah exulted over you to do you good and to multiply you, so JEHOVAH WILL EXULT OVER YOU TO DESTROY YOU AND TO ANNIHILATE YOU; and you will simply be torn away from off the soil to which you are going to take possession of it."

These words are still, just as true as when they were spoken many years ago.

God does not change. These verses apply to the JWs as a nation, the nation of "Israel" of Bible prophecy.

Take Care,

MDS

Edited by - MDS on 23 January 2001 10:48:27

62

Do we need a 'Faithful and Discrete Slave' ?

by ISP in

jw
friends

there is a thread already started on the subject of the fds elsewhere but i thought we may as well deal with aspect.. do we need a fds?.

what would we miss if we didn't have one?.

what additional new light do we need?.

MDS

Hi ISP,

You said:

These congregations give the impression that they were self governing and therefore it was Jesus who put them right and no one else. I don’t think any could argue with Jesus ability and position in directing affairs. It appears it his intention to leave matters and then offer direct counsel and admonition when he considers appropriate. There does not seem to be any point in having a FDS.

Also, this

The question I raised at the beginning still remains – Do we need a FDS? For the Christian you have God’s Word, prayer and the example of Jesus. Do we need anyone else to tell us what to do? In the first century God showed his approval to people who accepted the Good News by pouring out his holy spirit on them. There was not another agency involved

....Jesus appeared to summarise the extent of organisation in that he described himself in middle of 7 congregations. There was not a FDS in the middle of the congregations, for example. Same would indicate there is not a major role for the FDS in this setup. In actual fact I do not think we need a FDS.

The point about the "additional human agency," you may want to rethink. We may need to make an allowance for one more "party", an intermediary one... the APOSTLE John, on the Penal Isle of Patmos.

The Bible says of "apostles," their role in the christian structure:

"And he gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelizing, some as shepherds and teachers with a view to the readjustment of the holy ones, for ministerial work, fur the building up on the body of the Christ." -- Ephesians 4:11

The "apostles," were put in place by Jesus Christ, for the "readjustment" of the congregations. They were put OVER the congregations, in authority, and could and would appoint "overseers," and "ministerials servants," within each. -- 1 Tim. 3rd chapter, Titus 1st chapter.

Ask yourself,

Why did Jesus Himself, yes, see the need to send this all-important message, NOT to the seven congregations FIRST, but to apostle John? Why?

Yes, the message went to John FIRST.

Thus, we see that Jesus recognized an important RANK SYSTEM that had approved of long before. A Rank system.

1 Cor. 12:28 says:

"And God has set the respective ones in the congregation, first, apostles, second, prophets, third, teachers, then powerful works; then gifts of healings, helpful services, ability to direc, different tongues,"

This is a "rank system," of authority as to who takes the lead in the congregation and also where they stand with God and Jesus, the head of the christian congregational arrangement as to authority within it.

So, in harmony with this, Jesus then, begans his explaining in detail of the 'goings on' of every single congregation, good and bad, conduct, in other words,

"...who did what..."

...most appropriately to the Apostle John, the "in-between" human agency, between Christ and the congregation. John is the go-between personal agency, between the two. That is so, because the "apostles" were appointed to take the lead within the entire congregational arrangements, and they were "IN CHARGE" of all such. Christ recognized this fact. So, he thus, funneled all info on the congregations and their respectives "angle/messenger" leaders, first thru John.

So, most appropriately, the entire profile of the "7 angels," and the "7 different congregations or lampstands," was given to John, the apostle, FIRST. And in turn, John's responsibility was to contact these congregations AND GIVE THEM, Jesus' "judgments" and assessments of each "angel," and of each "congregation."

And John did this.

John gives them, Jesus' assessment of each "angel," and each "congregation," -- this was John's job...John's responsibility.

John, the apostle, is the go-between, person here.

So, all of this information was transmitted to apostle John, first, and then, later, transmitted to the "angels" of each congregation.

John was told at Revelation 1:10, 11 the following:

"...I heard behind me a strong voice like that of a trumpet, saying What you see write in a scroll and send it to the seven congregations,..."

So, the Bible shows here, that Jesus did use an ADDITIONAL HUMAN AGENCY, this "go-between" authority figure, apostle John. Jesus used him between himself and the "7 Angels," who were in turn over each of the "7 congregations, to give them counsel and stern, life-saving admonition.

And in turn, John addressed each letter to: "...To the angel of the congregation in Ephesus," etc., etc., etc. -- Rev. 2:1

The entire Revelation was transmitted, via

Jehovah, Jesus, Jesus' angel, John, angel of congregation, and then finally to the congregation itself. -- Revelation 1:1

John, the apostle was that additional human agency between Christ and the congregational "angels" and the "congregations" themselves.

Is this not so?

MDS

Edited by - MDS on 14 January 2001 20:25:9

62

Do we need a 'Faithful and Discrete Slave' ?

by ISP in

jw
friends

there is a thread already started on the subject of the fds elsewhere but i thought we may as well deal with aspect.. do we need a fds?.

what would we miss if we didn't have one?.

what additional new light do we need?.

MDS

Yes, I am a Jehovah's Witnesses, but one that is NOT associated the current organization in its present situation of "apostasy."

Perhaps, you remember many references by the WTS to the churches of Christendom as being "apostate" and using prophecy to indicate that "Israel/Jerusalem" of years gone by, pictorially stand for the churches today, and how they would become "apostate," in the "time of the end."

However, the scriptures reveal, that is really Jehovah's Witnesses, as modern-day "Israel," that would go "apostate," in our time. Jehovah's Witnesses as a nation, under the leadership of the current "Governing Body," are on a collision course with Almighty God. -- Jer. 23:19, 20

Ezekiel 37:23 is a good example of this. It states:

"And they will no longer defile themselves with their dungy idols and with their disgusting things and with all their transgressions; and I shall certainly SAVE THEM from all their DWELLING PLACES [or, "Acts of lawlessness," "apostasies." -- See fnt NWT Ref bib.] in which they have sinned, and I will cleanse them, and THEY MUST BECOME MY PEOPLE, AND I MYSELF SHALL BECOME THEIR GOD."

A clue:

Actually, the last part of this verse reminds us of Rev. 21:3 which says:

"...Look! The Tent of God is with mankind. And he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them."

This is a now, cleansed, spiritually chaste "Israel," now. Free from "apostasy," and "lawlessness." No, there is no a "curse" upon Jerusalem. (Rev. 22:3) The "curse" is lifted off "Israel," and "Jerusalem." Now, Jerusalem has been "cured" by the "leaves from the trees," the 200 million "trees," the "curing staff," of Luke 12:42. "All Israel, is saved by bringing the ("fullness" or) FULL NUMBER OF THE GENTILES in", as indicated by Romans 11:25. Jehovah has miraculously done this. To "cure" Israel. -- Rev. 22:1-3

So, we are talking about the same people, spiritual "Israel," modern day Jehovah's Witnesses, as a nation, having to be "cleansed," from their "acts of lawlessness," "apostasies," as they learned these wicked ways, from the infamous, "man of lawlessness," who has been "presiding" over them, in the "Temple of [The] God," the temple of Jehovah, and "publicly showing himself to be a god," one to worshiped, right within Jehovah's temple, and right among God's Name people...this wicked one who is there by the "operation of Satan," the wicked Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses. -- Please see 2 Thess. 2:3-12.

For their total UNREPENTANCE of obvious "sins" committed over the years, and their disgraceful uncooperative spirit they have manifested with confronted with their "sins," as are well discussed on this public forum and elsewhere, now...now they must "collide" with God Himself, who is Almighty. They will fall as a nation, completely -- be completely disgraced, publicly, before all of the world...

After this tremendous "collision" with God, they will have to be "rebuilt," "restored" to spiritual health again to gain God's favor. -- Isa. 30:26; Micah 4:6,7

THEY WILL THEN, REPENT, REPENT, REPENT before their God. They must do this. They must renounce their past wicked ways. They must recognize they "they have sinned," before their God. They must "bear His rage," against them. Prophecy indicates, that they will do this. -- See Micah 7:9

Afterwhich, after being "restored," finally, they will be allowed to administer, the Grand, Awesome, ABRAHAMIC COVENANT to billions, to all of the nations that willingly and cooperatively "stream to the Mountain of Jehovah" for salvation. -- Isa. 2:2-4; Micah 4:1-4

My thoughts on "death," and "hell," -- Death, "unconscious state of man," and "hell" being the common grave, same as WTS and nation of spiritual "Israel." They are correct on this. They have a basic "framework" or "outline" of the "knowledge of the truth," as Paul said at Romans 2:20, the same as the "Jewish nation," of his day. But not the COMPLETE picture, not all of the facts. Thus their present understanding of Scripture, is incomplete, skewed and they are thus, easily misled [by the G.B. and WTS] because of it.

However, the 144,000 doctrine, this is a very deep subject...a grand one indeed. :-)

If you want to get into it, it will take some "explaining." But...we can do that too.

Take Care,

MDS

Edited by - MDS on 14 January 2001 14:34:43

14

Good News

by neyank in

jw
friends

matt.24:14. this good news will be preached in all the earth and then the end will come.. we have all remembered that verse,studied that verse and preached that verse.. the wts uses that verse to keep the jws going door to door.. of course,the wts also says we (everyone on earth)must become a jw in order to have gods favor.. i was having a discussion with a born again christian and he said the good news that is to be preached is about jesus having come and having been put to death for our transgressions.

so that we can now aproach god on the basis of the sacrifice.

in the name of jesu christ.. the wts says the good news to be preached is about the kingdom that is to come.. what do you think the good news that jesus spoke of is?.

MDS

It is a government that will prove to be complete, unshakable and one that will last forever, and ever, ruling the earth in justice and righteousness for all eternity. -- Hebrews 12:28

Those "installed" in their respective "positions" of authority, are the "elect" of God, or the "chosen" ones of God. That's why its called "God's" Kingdom or government, since He makes ALL choices ["elect" means choice] as to who should be in what position within this new, "EARTHLY" government that will rule the earth, according to His Will. -- Matt. 6:10

We are in that time now, when God is making His "choices" of who shall lead among His people.

MDS

62

Do we need a 'Faithful and Discrete Slave' ?

by ISP in

jw
friends

there is a thread already started on the subject of the fds elsewhere but i thought we may as well deal with aspect.. do we need a fds?.

what would we miss if we didn't have one?.

what additional new light do we need?.

MDS

Hi ISP:

I found the post...posted under the other FD&S thread, the earlier one, on January 4, 2001.

--------MDS post-------

In our quest to identify the FDS as mentioned in Matt. 24th chapter, we can do well to give serious consider to another key Bible account. One that is very similar, but providing a very different, very unique clue to help us understand what Jesus was actually pointing forward to.

The Bible account is Luke 12:42 which says:

"And the Lord said: Who really is the faithful steward, the discreet one, whom his master will appoint over his body of attendants [Greek: therapias] to keep giving them their measure of food supplies at the proper time?"

Vines Expository of New Testament Words has this to say about the special word:

"Therapeia primarily denotes care, attention, Luke 12:42; then, medical service healing {Eng. therapy), Luke 9:11; Rev. 22:2, of the effects of the leaves of the tree of life, perhaps here with the meaning "health."

Also, we notice that this "special" Greek word is closely related to:

"Therapeuo Eng., therapeutics, etc., denotes primarily to serve; then, to heal, restore to health, to cure, it is usually translated "to heal," but "cure" in Matt. 17:16, 18; Luke 7:21; 9:1; John 5:10, Acts 28:9,."

Thus, when rendering this particular Greek word at Luke 12:42 , in the New World Kingdom Interlinear Translation, a word for word transliteration of the Greek, the WTS decided to render it as a "Curing Staff", literally. An administrative staff for "Healing" or "Curing," -- thus a staff of "nursing" assistants or, as translated, a "body of attendants," like "nurses," who bring about a "cure" or "healing" to someone else, the patient, who is in critical need of "therapy" or help, by the aforementioned "staff" or ones "attending" upon the ailing one.

Thus, the "Faithful Steward," acting the part of an administrative leader, like a "doctor," then works harmoniously with the aforementioned "body of attendants", "nurses," or christian "assistants" of our time, as God-designated, "Curing Staff" to perform a special "cure." These are other christians who are designated by God, to perform a very special "curing", healing work upon "Israel." This is necessary because, by this time, God will "acted" upon spiritual "Israel" of our day and delivered SEVERE DISCIPLINE upon them for a practice of "sin," and "lawless" deeds, and spiritual "apostasy" practiced. So, God brings about, namely, the "42 months" of trampling as a form of "Discipline." Afterwhich, He will be bring about spiritual "therapy" for "Israel." (Rev. 12:6, 14; 13:5)

Mystery "Israel," will have been struck completely down by God Almighty for her many "disobedient acts." Thus after receiving of God's discipline and admitted "bad treatment" from His Own Hand, they will happily and willingly, become the recipients of "therapy" and spiritual "healing," from the "Faithful Steward" and God's prearranged, "Curing" or Healing Staff, some 200 million strong. -- See Isa. 30:26; Micah 4:6,7; Isa. 44:1-5; Romans 11:25; Rev. 9:16

MDS

Edited by - MDS on 4 January 2001 18:56:2

--------end of post-------

It is indeed, a grand story! Pictorial of our immediate future.

Edited by - MDS on 14 January 2001 13:41:7