Posts by snare&racket

25

JW Kids Who Lack Sincerity: Are You In The Flipping Truth Or Not?

by Apognophos in

did any of you know a jw youth who didn't seem to really even try to be sincere about the "truth"?

not someone who led a double life while pretending to be a goody-goody jw.

i mean the kind of kid who went to the meetings and did field service while making minimal effort at maintaining a pretense of being a true believer?.

snare&racket

The give away was the kingdom melodies, those kids NEVER sang a line lol.

Whilst sister 89yrs old imagines gods throne and its angels listening to her dodgy key of 'C', those kids knew it was bullshit, they were so EMBARASSED by the singing because they knew it was nothing more than kingdom hall karaoke.

I looked down on these kids at one time too, I used to think the same as you Apog. But then aged 24 (beyond my teeenage tantrums) I stopped doing talks, didn't want to do ministry, stopped singing, , stopped saying amen, went to my last assembly and felt like an alien...... I simply didn't believe it anymore, it all seemed so fake, so embarassing and I wanted no part of it no matter the consequence.

These kids were not bad human beings, they were not even bad kids. Bad kids don't rebel by having bedhair or not sing church hymns, bad kids shoot people, mug old ladies or deal drugs, bad kids joy ride in cars and hurt people. Let's keep it in context, they wore flashy cloathes and had their head down going door to door and at WORST said shit when you said sugar. I bet the kids you aree thinking of never even swore publicly...

Context....... Real world, Watchtower world....

As for the JW's that did all the answering up, field service, talks all whilst drinking, clubbing and messing around..... this is easily 9/10 JW teens. Even in bethel, it was all about poker, getting drunk on vodka and going to the salsa bar in Picadilly Circus for some dirty dancing.

89

99.9% Of a People Who Believe In Evolution Don't Understand It.

by Space Madness in

jw
friends

i never believed in evolution as i thought it didn't make sense and that what was proposed was simply impossible.

how could an environment alter an organism's dna?

as we can see however, bacteria cannot become resistance to antibiotics.

snare&racket

....and if you truly felt that Apog, you would pick up on the bucket of irony that is the scientific iliteracy that led to this thread being made.

Great Teacher.....then how come that textbook caused no misconception for me and everyone else that have taken the effort to read up on these topics? It is equivelant to being ignorant of rocket science, opening a textbook of rocket science to chapter 9 and complaining that the third paragraph doesn't make sense! Start with page 1 and you won't have misconceptions! This is basic schooling, a great teacher would know this.

Let me give another example....

Darwin Said "To suppose that the eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest possible degree."

If you were looking to undermine and not understand, that sentence alone would suffice your effort and interest. However in context of his whole statement he then went on to say....

"Reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a simple and imperfect eye to one complex and perfect can be shown to exist, each grade being useful to its possessor, as is certainly the case; if further, the eye ever varies and the variations be inherited, as is likewise certainly the case; and if such variations should be useful to any animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, should not be considered as subversive of the theory."

Now your comment Grreag Teacher is equievelant of blaming Darwin not the reader, for having read the first quote out of context. If you think a textbook caused a misconception, but to everyone else it made sense, maybe there is a clue to the issue right under your nose....or right behind it.

89

99.9% Of a People Who Believe In Evolution Don't Understand It.

by Space Madness in

jw
friends

i never believed in evolution as i thought it didn't make sense and that what was proposed was simply impossible.

how could an environment alter an organism's dna?

as we can see however, bacteria cannot become resistance to antibiotics.

snare&racket

But apog, if you understood evolution you would know that response, be it mechanical or via thought is not how evolution works.

I said 'intent' because that was the context of SM argument. But if we change it to mechanical, it is still wrong if you have a basic understanding of evolution. The antibiotics do NOTHING to contribute to the formation of the RANDOM mutation.

The antibiotics are relevant to the natural selection of that mutation, because the antibiotic use is now a factor in the enviroment. To explain, Natural selection is a term that came from Darwin seeing human selective breeding on farms, mate two fat pigs and you get very fat piglets. Natural selection just means the enviroment, nature itself, does the selecting, instead of the farmer. So the antibiotic use is an alteration in the enviroment that makes the randomly mutated genes a useful thing, or a useless thing.

The important point the 'textbook' is making is that..... in no way is the DNA responding to the enviroment i.e. antibiotic use.

Imagine if I made a computer program to randomly type out letters continuously on a screen. Now, unbeknown to the computer program, everytime it randomly forms a word whilst randomly outputting letters, I will note down the word formed and keep a list of all the words made.Any words formed by the computer are formed at random still, they are in no way responding to me looking for them to exist.

Do you see the analogy?

25

JW Kids Who Lack Sincerity: Are You In The Flipping Truth Or Not?

by Apognophos in

did any of you know a jw youth who didn't seem to really even try to be sincere about the "truth"?

not someone who led a double life while pretending to be a goody-goody jw.

i mean the kind of kid who went to the meetings and did field service while making minimal effort at maintaining a pretense of being a true believer?.

snare&racket

The rules used to be very clear, you could not progress in the cong if you have an unbeliever in the house. You couldn't even have a book study at your house if that was the case.

Those kids were kicked out of their homes as soon as the parents could so...... it is disgusting. Those kids HAD to go to meetings, HAD to begrudgingly go door to door. It was that or be homeless and lose your family and friends.

It is amazing that so many left so young. I spend my life with 22 year old doctors that still have a bedroom at home and go home on weekends for mums sunday lunch. In Watchtower land, getting booted on to the street aged 16 or 17 happened without a blink of an eye.

It always intrigued me how many JW kids left aged 16 if they had a non believing parent who lived elsewhere. Basically, if there is a choice, by far most left.

snare

p.s. for those that bring up them not knowing doctrine and wanting to break the rules , those kids weren't bad humans, they didn't drive illegally, do heroine, murder or steal. This is important.....because there was no REAL laws being broken, they knew which laws were legitimate (civil law) and which weren't (watchtower law). Again, they were just smarter than you and me. As for doctines, give them a break, I know elders in bethel who were clueless on doctrine, why should a 16 yr old know such garbage when they don't believe it? Again, they were smarter than us.

89

99.9% Of a People Who Believe In Evolution Don't Understand It.

by Space Madness in

jw
friends

i never believed in evolution as i thought it didn't make sense and that what was proposed was simply impossible.

how could an environment alter an organism's dna?

as we can see however, bacteria cannot become resistance to antibiotics.

snare&racket

and this on a thread claiming 99.9% of evolutionary believers don't understand it....

Come on Apog, we have chatted enough, you are not dumb. This is an embarrassingly iironic, ignorant thread.

The solution isn't excusing the ignorance and ignoring the very untruthful thread title, it is education.

89

99.9% Of a People Who Believe In Evolution Don't Understand It.

by Space Madness in

jw
friends

i never believed in evolution as i thought it didn't make sense and that what was proposed was simply impossible.

how could an environment alter an organism's dna?

as we can see however, bacteria cannot become resistance to antibiotics.

snare&racket

I understand the issue, but the text is 100% correct. There is NO RESPONSE to the antibiotics, response implies intelligence or intent.

the irony is SM started by saying he didn't accept evolution because 'bacteria can't think' . He then uses as evidence a quote that says it is a misconception to believe bacteria RESPOND or find a resistance due to a NEED to find one.

It is 100% random, that is all the quote is saying.

But a basic science 101 explianation of evolution would have made this clear to someone interested in evolution. To assume it is a legitimate mistake is to assume it is ok to go from no knowlege of evolution and then to read that paragraph on the mechanism of evolution.

SM needs to start with the basics, so as to not trip themselves up like this. It is not a slam down or intentionally offensive statement to say 'go get some books'... it is a sincere answer to thr problem, the ONLY answer. My bedside is piled high with books.

There is no shortcut.

I must admit and I know I should not assume, but it appears to me SM is seeking to undermine not understand. As I said, if they really wanted to know they would read evolution 101 and had they done, the paragraph they quoted WOULD HAVE made sense to them.

89

99.9% Of a People Who Believe In Evolution Don't Understand It.

by Space Madness in

jw
friends

i never believed in evolution as i thought it didn't make sense and that what was proposed was simply impossible.

how could an environment alter an organism's dna?

as we can see however, bacteria cannot become resistance to antibiotics.

snare&racket

Maybe this will help....

"A common misconception is that a mutation produces a novel adaptation precisely when a population “needs” it to confront a new environmental challenge.

For example, many people mistakenly believe that antibiotics create resistance, that is, that resistance arises in bacteria in response to exposure to the drugs."

This quote you have is saying, there is NO thought process, the bacteria is NOT responding to the enviroment, it is a misconception to think it is a response to the antibiotics or that the antibiotics create the resistance.

The mutation is a RANDOM mutation, it doesnt come about for any other reason than a random mistake in reading and writing the DNA. It happens in all cells, including ours, millions of times a day (hence cancers etc). If by random chance that mistake offers a benefit to the bacteria....e.g. in that it is resistant, to the antibiotics method of action, then the genes wil survive and replicate at high rates. But it all came about by chance! BUT the natural selection of those genes is not chance, it is logical. If the new gene's created by chance (random) are more suitable....they will survive in that enviroment (not random).

That is all YOUR quote is saying. You stand/stood by the quote because you thought it was saying something else. It is NOT saying that antibiotic use does not lead to changes in bacterial evolution, the wording they used is correct and very specific, but it requires a BASIC understanding of evolution to comprehend what they are saying.

I will say it one last time, I assume you no longer stand by your quote anymore been as you disagree with evolution (write to the author if you doubt me that it is defending evolution). So one more time....

HUMBLE YOURSELF and buy a freaking science book..... that way you won't misunderstand the science you read.

snare x

p.s. if you were seeking to understand and not undermine, this embarrassment would not have happened. Be sincere about your search for answers, it is SO MUCH easier and takes far less time.

89

99.9% Of a People Who Believe In Evolution Don't Understand It.

by Space Madness in

jw
friends

i never believed in evolution as i thought it didn't make sense and that what was proposed was simply impossible.

how could an environment alter an organism's dna?

as we can see however, bacteria cannot become resistance to antibiotics.

snare&racket

SPACE MADNESS....

No biology scientist EVER has claimed that bacteria 'think' as a mechanism to evolve. The only person to bring it up was youl I'll repeat the conversation we just had for you been as it is confusing for you. Again, bear in mind no scientist EVER claiming bacteria evolve by thinking.

You: "How could bacteria resist antibiotics if they can't "think"?"

your quote: A common misconception is that a mutation produces a novel adaptation precisely when a population “needs” it to confront a new environmental challenge. For example, many people mistakenly believe that antibiotics create resistance; that is, that resistance arises in bacteria in response to expo- sure to the drugs.

Me:"The pressure or 'thinking' as you called it, quite incorrectly, is nothing more than the USE of antibiotics. By using them we change the enviroment"

please note how this is exactly as the quote you added explained, though I think you misunderstood it as your motive is not to understand but undermine.

you: "I explicitly stated that it is impossible for DNA and bacteria to think, as some people suggest with adaptation to an environment and bacterial resistance."

me: "as some people suggest" .......Who?

You are arguing about something NOBODY HAS EVER SAID and your own quote from a textbook is telling you the answer. It is RANDOM, there is no thought process, there is no 'need' for a solution that leads to it being found, it is PURE random mutation and when at RANDOM a deletion or nonsense mutation or tri nucelotide repeat leads to a change in the bacteria that BY CHANCE is a protection from the antibiotic, that genetic code is now going to be the most useful DNA in that enviroment, so that bacteria will replicate well and its genes will dominate in that region.

All of this is 100% provable, all repeatable and all witnessed. All the biological mechanisms have been witnessed and explained fully. we can even evoke these changes ourselves they are THAT predictable.

Christians call this micro evolution and don't deny it happens, because we SEE IT happening such as with antibiotics. You completly misunderstood your quote, it is not saying bacteria cant mutate a random useful advantage in the presence of an antibiotic, in fact is says the exact opposite in the last sentence, but it is saying it does not do it by thinking or by needing a solution, it is random.

I figured you understood this as you quoted it so I felt you were being deceitful. But now I a wondering whether you understood your own post as you still don't comprehend what you have said wrong.

25

JW Kids Who Lack Sincerity: Are You In The Flipping Truth Or Not?

by Apognophos in

did any of you know a jw youth who didn't seem to really even try to be sincere about the "truth"?

not someone who led a double life while pretending to be a goody-goody jw.

i mean the kind of kid who went to the meetings and did field service while making minimal effort at maintaining a pretense of being a true believer?.

snare&racket

Those kids were the bravest, most real, smartest people in Watchtower world....... My opinion of them has 180'd.

I must disagree, they were THE MOST sincere of all of us. They did not hide their contempt, their mockery of the rules. They didn't pretend not to listen to 'worldly' music, didn't pretend they hadn't watched violent films. They were real, but this was mistranslated as 'rebelious'. What a disgraceful misrepresentation that was.

They made it clear they didn't believe it and didn't care for the consequences. Everyone else was living the lie, pretending there were no doubts, conflicts, internal questions.

Those poor kids lost EVERYTHING at age 16 or 17 and they were not even baptised, their treatment is a bigger disgrace than shunning and disfellowshipping of the baptised JW's. Several come to mind, I remember one telling me he would leave when he turned 16.

These kids were tough, you don't find their sort here, they got on with life because they had no choice. I am ashamed to think of many who were simply forgotten about when they seperated themselves from the cong at this age, I also forgot about them and it was wrong to. These kids had nothing and nobody.

43

Assembly News Photo

by snare&racket in

jw
friends

this photograph from a news site is a succinct summary of a life in wt's hands....... look at their faces, it says it all.. also, note the watchtower pr machine in action, explaining that it brings 4 million dollars to the location.

(10,000 x 400 dollars) clearly a watchtower statistic, where is the care and interest for members who are struggling so much, with new videos encouraging less career activity, less work commitments, at an all time economic low for our generation.. http://www.standard-freeholder.com/2014/06/15/thousands-attend-watchtower-convention-in-cornwall.

father: "i'm a wt 'yes' man and proud of it!

snare&racket

Literally not one happy face.......