hi everyone, first i just want to say if it wasn't this forum, i'd be baptized!
i haven't managed to successfully end my studies with a zealous jw.
she uses everything against me to brainwash me into believing i need the org.
"I'm upset on one hand because I really did like some of the people I met."
I understand. There are a LOT of GOOD people inside that organization. But that doesn't make them any less misled. Focus on WHAT is being taught.....not how nice the people are that are there listening to the message.
i was recently told that the average cost to build a new kingdom hall in the united states rural midwest region was $250,000.
i was shocked to say the least.
i remember when my childhood congregation built a new hall in 1989 for $60,000.
I happen to be in an industry that deals with home values regularly. In the midwest.....we typically see an average cost per square foot of $85 to $105. That includes all materials and labor. Some homes and buildings are more than that and some are slightly less. Obviously if you are a law firm and you want granite table tops, mahogony floors and imported Italian marble everywhere.....you are looking at quite a bit more than $85 to $105 per square foot. The $85-$105 number is for standard materials that you would build a house with if you went to Home Depot and bought everything there.
3,000 square feet at $100/square would be $300,000. Well more than half of that $300,000 would be in labor......so in my opinion, you can remove $150,000 from the $300,000 cost to build a new KH. Now we're at $150,000. I have trouble beliving that any quickbuild is being constructed using retail material prices......so let's knock another 15% off. We are now at $127,500. But then you have to take into consideration the cost of the land. Permits. Etc. Don't forget the parking lot. Concrete is EXPENSIVE. It would not shock me at all if the actual cost was over $200k
i do.. .
how about you?.
om.
Openmind - that was priceless! My dad was very much like the dad on Christmas Story. He swore all the time!
mrs punk was not a happy bunny when i announced i was leaving the wtb$ as it was all a big farce.. she has been quite rude to me, she walked out one weekend and came back 2 days later from staying with a relative.
she told me about all the negative reasons i left (attributing the 'evil' to me and none to the holy 7 headed beast the gb).
she has told the teenage kids they are not to listen to me.. she refuses to talk bible and gives me the 'talk to the hand sign' on the basis she refuses to listen to my 'spiritual pornography' (now there's an appealing thought!!).
Punk - Your wife sounds very much like mine. Granted, I'm not fully out yet.....but she she just can't fathom what's "wrong with me." She says she'll do research....but "nothing that isn't approved". My fear is that even if I present her with older articles that prove the society was NOT chosen by Jesus in 1919, she'll go on the defensive about 1) WHERE I went to get that information or 2) that my motive is a destructive one....trying to destroy her faith. She trusts implicitly that it is God's organization but can't explain ANYTHING she truly "believes". Like your mentioning of the overlapping generations......she is clueless. A while back we were discussing the FDS and I mentioned 1919. She said "you do so much faulty research that you can't even get your dates correct. 1919 had absolutely NO significance".
She has NO clue yet she is willing to DIE for it.
I think it comes down to 2 things. 1) She WANTS to believe the fairytale and will do whatever she has to do to maintain the belief. 2) she is fearful. Fearful that even doing research that shows that the society has lied will prove that she was purposely being critical of them and thus she is no longer worthy of living forever. Total and completel mind control
i haven't found anything to show that they have, except in the reasoning book, they admit say this:.
"jehovah's witnesses do not claim to be inspired prophets.
they have made mistakes.
Illuminator - That's exactly the point. I've looked up all of those articles and I agree with you! But nowhere do any of them explicitly state "this is coming from God". They can say "this chronology is not from man" and then later claim it was an opinion. They can say "they are WE BELIEVE, God's dates" and then later say again...it was just an opinion. Like I said....you, I and anyone with a reasonable head on their shoulders can read what they wrote and justifiably call them liars. But they imagine in their own little minds that the fact they avoided explicitly stating "this is from Jehovah and is NOT just our opinion" means that they never truly falsely prophesied. It is sickening
trying to work with jw's and their cd i notice that the harder i push their beliefs the more likely they are to hit back with some werid version of jw belives that exsists only in their own head.. its almost like they listen to the bs from the platform, run it through their head and then process it through their own filter and end up with a bastardised version of "the truth" that they feel comfortable with.. .
anyone else encountered this?
and whats your theory about it?.
I agree that all JWs have some version of the "truth" that is different than what is on paper in their own heads. But here is what is so weird. ALL of my JW friends have at one time or another mentioned something they believe that is out of line with what the society preaches. For instance, the whole generation debacle. Some don't quite buy the latest explanation....but they believe everything else therefore 1) the new teaching just hasn't sunk in yet with them or 2) they think the society will change it back to somethign they can agree with.
So ultimately......they believe something that is NOT taught by teh society. Therefore the only difference between them and an apostate is that they keep it to themselves. Somehow that still qualifies them for eternal life.
shes a nice girl.
nothing against her personally.
she hasnt been in touch for monthes, havent seen her for monthes.. is something happening that she needs my bum on a seat for?.
JWs are much like Lloyd Christmas from Dumb and Dumber. "So you're telling me there's a chance!" If you ignore it....she'll text again in a few weeks. Or she will drop by. Even if it is a year from now......she still has a glimmer of hope. You have to end it.
Personally I wouldn't say anything to her about her being in a cult. She won't take that well. A diplomatic approach is always best. Especially if you hold out home that someday YOU might be able to reach HER and help HER.
i am not a jw nor have i ever been one, but i joined this forum because a close firend of mine is.. we met and became good friends in the senior year of high school, and i didn't know what it meant to be a jw at the time, all i knew was that they were another christian denomination so i let it slide.. .
it was only after sometime after graduation that i began to really take my faith seriousely, and in the process i decided to do some research on watchtower beliefs, and i was actually scared for her.
now i knew enough by now that if i tried to confornt her on this issue, that would be the last i heard of her so i tried as best i could to not "blaspheme".
Do not argue doctrine with her.
If I were you......I'd read up on the history of Witnesses and what it is that keeps them captive. READ THE BOOK CAPTIVES OF A CONCEPT BY DON CAMERON. Once you understand why she is so captive to the organization you'll understand better how to help her. Once you read the book....I would feign interest in teh JW religion. Make it sincere. Ask her thought provoking questions about their history (as you'll find in the Captives of a Concept book) Let her believe she is teaching YOU about why her religion is right. All the while......she'll be doing research that she will hopefully find to be shocking.
ugh,,.
had article of disabled woman,,she had offer of marriage by a fellow disabled man, considered ,but not a jw so will wait till new world when can leap and run and be sound of health.
poor dear.. another article about "temporary residents" to subsist and work for suffiencies as "the days are numbered" and then can have a beautiful house.
"--High ed: The statement in the study artcle on "Temporary Residents" that says "Vigilant Christians refrain from using the world to the full when it comes to higher education" (or something like that), is about as close to making a rule on higher ed as I've seen. I don't think they could put it any stronger without it actually becoming a rule. I would hazard a guess that the economic downturn globally is sending JWs back to school and parents are probably telling teenagers to go to college right out of high school, given that employment among teens is around 50% in many areas, even here in the US. The GB is cracking down on this, "evidently," yet I would be curious as to what they think the average 18 year old JW fresh out of the hs would actually be able to do for a job??? Oh, that's right--Jehovah will provide. I forgot."
I find this to be perplexing. The borg basically condemns higher education. Yet....even they have to understand that as the years roll on.....it is becoming more and more necessary just to survive. Won't donations drop when 50 years from now....all of their 10,000,000 JWs are dirt poor with no $ to give?
i haven't found anything to show that they have, except in the reasoning book, they admit say this:.
"jehovah's witnesses do not claim to be inspired prophets.
they have made mistakes.
Regarding Rutherford and Russell....the March 22, 1993 Awake (p4) says " never did they presume to originate predictions ‘in the name of Jehovah’. Never did they say, ‘These are the words of Jehovah’".
They claim to be a kind of prophet that has never existed before. An uninspired true prophet. Since they don't preface their statements with "God told us to tell you this"....they imagine that they have not falsely prophesied. Evidently God is ok with letting them off teh hook with such a technicality.
What's great is the next part. The June 1, 1997 WT says " Modesty on the part of the faithful and discreet slave class…..prevents it from presumptuously running ahead and wildly speculating about things ". So the FDS does not speculate, right? Yet, the yearbook of 1980 (p62) says " Certainly they have not returned. No one has seen them, and it would be foolish to make such an announcement. It was stated in the "Millions" that we might reasonably expect them to return shortly after 1925, but this was merely an expressed opinion." So they get themselves out of being called false prophets because they didn't say "This is coming directly from Jehovah".......rather it was only an "expressed opinion" So my question is......what is a synonym for opinion? Why....it is SPECULATION! In the yearbook they admit to expressing opinion or speculating....yet the WT above says that modesty prevents them from doing such a thing! Round and Round they go!
Furthermore......a question I'd like to ask honest hearted JWs is......anything in the past that is NOW referred to as an "expressed opinion"......how do you think the leaders of the organization woudl have reacted if YOU referred to it as an "expressed opinion" BACK THEN??????? If Rutherford were going around telling people that the faithful men of old will be resurrected in 1925 adn you were standing right next to him reminding everyone he talked to "remember....this is NOT coming from God....it is ONLY an opinion"......how would Rutherford have reacted?
Perhaps it was an expressed opinion.....but it was an "expressed opinion" that you had BETTER believe and and SHOW that you believe it.
