Posts by outsmartthesystem

39

I need help when answering proof of WT being only religion

by DS211 in

ok so i have already been talked to about this and i always have difficulty finding a retort.

my friend/elder condtantly tells me to visit bethel to prove its gods org--efficient, obedient, loving place, yadda yadda.

and he also uses how many go out and preach the same message, how no matter where you go youll get the same loving treatment, follow the bible as best they can (ha), show lots of love, do t celebrate pagan holidays, etc etc.

outsmartthesystem

Sorry for all the posts.....but I hope you find something in there to be helpful

39

I need help when answering proof of WT being only religion

by DS211 in

ok so i have already been talked to about this and i always have difficulty finding a retort.

my friend/elder condtantly tells me to visit bethel to prove its gods org--efficient, obedient, loving place, yadda yadda.

and he also uses how many go out and preach the same message, how no matter where you go youll get the same loving treatment, follow the bible as best they can (ha), show lots of love, do t celebrate pagan holidays, etc etc.

outsmartthesystem

The March 22, 1993 Awake is a magazine that uses weasel words to try to back out of taking responsibility for making false predictions. It is a favorite amongst clever elders. Page 4 tries to explain why Russell and Rutherford should not be viewed as false prophets. It says " Jehovah's Witnesses, in their eagerness for Jesus' second coming, have suggested dates that turned out to be incorrect. Because of this, some have called them false prophets. Never in these instances, however, did they presume to originate predictions 'in the name of Jehovah.' Never did they say, 'These are the words of Jehovah.'"

If the everlasting life of individual witnesses is contingent upon obeying the "faithful slave".....then does it really matter whether or not they specifically say "these are the words of Jehovah?" Isn't that assumption already implied by both the writers of the article and those reading it? Is that what it really comes down to? Jehovah is a God of tricky technicalities and clever semantics? Yet at the bottom of that very same page under the Awake masthead we read the same thing that was printed on every Awake magazine at that time. "this magazine builds confidence in the Creator's promise of a peaceful and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away." It should be noted that at that time......the society defined a generation as 70-80 years. Therefore the belief was that those that physically saw the events of 1914 would be alive when armageddon came. Not this muddled "overlapping" shit they've put in print today.

So, in all honesty, what is the difference between saying "These are the words of Jehovah.." and "The Creator promises..?" Are they really trying to get themselves off the hook with that technicality? The fact is plain and simple. They spoke on behalf of God.......telling US what HE promises.......and they put it in writing. The fact is, the society has proudly put Jehovah's name on all their teachings. Even if they don't say "this is directly from Jehovah"…..the insinuation is that it is. If the assumption was that the teaching was completely man made…...no one would follow. The society reminds us constantly that they are Jehovah's sole channel of communication. That He only speaks through them. The July 15, 1998 Watchtower (p12) says in reference to spiritual food being provided through the faithful and discreet slave, "thus God is speaking, but are we listening?".

So the society explains that when the slave provides counsel…….it is God speaking, therefore we should listen. Yet they also try to wiggle out of responsibility for past failures by saying "Never did they say, 'these are the words of Jehovah'"? Seriously? Does that mean that JWs should wait until they start prefacing statements with "these are the words of Jehovah" before they listen? If a witness decides that he is not going to follow the latest teaching of the society and is open about his feelings and tells others about it he is subject to disfellowshipping for creating a sect. Odds are, that teaching as expressed in the literature did not start with the words, "these are the words of Jehovah". Regardless, it is understood and implied that this new teaching is from Jehovah therefore all witnesses must abide by it. Simply put, the belief of 7 million Jehovah's Witnesses is that if it comes from the faithful slave then it is coming from Jehovah. To try to wiggle out of responsibility for past false prophecies by saying "but we never said this is coming from Jehovah" is irresponsible, dishonest, and cowardly.

39

I need help when answering proof of WT being only religion

by DS211 in

ok so i have already been talked to about this and i always have difficulty finding a retort.

my friend/elder condtantly tells me to visit bethel to prove its gods org--efficient, obedient, loving place, yadda yadda.

and he also uses how many go out and preach the same message, how no matter where you go youll get the same loving treatment, follow the bible as best they can (ha), show lots of love, do t celebrate pagan holidays, etc etc.

outsmartthesystem

The April 1, 1972 Watchtower (p197) explains that God has a modern prophet that is "not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian Witnesses." This is written under the subheading "Identifying the Prophet".

39

I need help when answering proof of WT being only religion

by DS211 in

ok so i have already been talked to about this and i always have difficulty finding a retort.

my friend/elder condtantly tells me to visit bethel to prove its gods org--efficient, obedient, loving place, yadda yadda.

and he also uses how many go out and preach the same message, how no matter where you go youll get the same loving treatment, follow the bible as best they can (ha), show lots of love, do t celebrate pagan holidays, etc etc.

outsmartthesystem

Page 132 of the Reasoning Book defines false prophets as - "individuals and organizations 1) proclaiming messages that they attribute to a superhuman source but that 2) do not originate with the true God and 3) are not in harmony with his revealed will".

By having to stop teaching or "revise" so many of Russell and Rutherford's teachings, the modern day governing body has proven that what Russell and Rutherford wrote and taught was false. If what they taught was true.....it would still be being taught today, no? Those two individuals 1) attributed their messages to a superhuman source – God, 2) their messages (such as armageddon happening in 1914 or the faithful men of old being resurrected in 1925) did NOT come true. And if they did not come true, then they did not originate with God, and 3) the messages discussed could not have been in harmony with God's revealed will if they did not come true. Is it possible for a prediction that did not come true to be in harmony with God's will?

According to their own definition in the Reasoning Book,these men falsely prophesied…..yet the society today will not admit that. They prefer to use verbal gymnastics to try to explain the problem away much like politicians do.

31

Since most JW's HATE giving talks and doing meeting parts, why does the Watchtower Society still require it?

by yadda yadda 2 in

jw
friends

i loathed giving talks and doing meeting parts.

i dreaded all assignments.

i was intelligent enough and always did a good job, but all my jw life (born in to mid-30's) i enjoyed giving talks about as much as a visit to the dentist.. i am sure that 90% of all jw's similarly dislike it.

outsmartthesystem

I think it is a combination of what Jeffro and Julia said. Conform to social pressures for the sake of control.......and once that has happened......now we need to keep you busy with mundane shit so you lack the desire to think critically about our claims

39

I need help when answering proof of WT being only religion

by DS211 in

ok so i have already been talked to about this and i always have difficulty finding a retort.

my friend/elder condtantly tells me to visit bethel to prove its gods org--efficient, obedient, loving place, yadda yadda.

and he also uses how many go out and preach the same message, how no matter where you go youll get the same loving treatment, follow the bible as best they can (ha), show lots of love, do t celebrate pagan holidays, etc etc.

outsmartthesystem

oh and the elder responded to the holiday thing--"well no ones REALLY 100% sure where some of those things originated so thats why its a conscience matter lol i coukdnt help but smile

If it is a conscience matter then ask him if you could put up Christmas lights this year and celebrate without getting DFd. The reality is that if it has pagan roots (according to the elder manual) you'd be up for a judicial committee. If we aren't 100% sure where these things originated then we can't be 100% sure that God hates them. If we aren't 100% sure God hates them then how can we disfellowship people for choosing to participate in a celebration that the bible does not specifically condemn? Didn't Jesus condemn the pharisees for making up rules with no clear backing?

39

I need help when answering proof of WT being only religion

by DS211 in

ok so i have already been talked to about this and i always have difficulty finding a retort.

my friend/elder condtantly tells me to visit bethel to prove its gods org--efficient, obedient, loving place, yadda yadda.

and he also uses how many go out and preach the same message, how no matter where you go youll get the same loving treatment, follow the bible as best they can (ha), show lots of love, do t celebrate pagan holidays, etc etc.

outsmartthesystem

Please tell me more about your family/wife situation. My wife and I divorced over this. Some of the best advice I've heard from those still in....with family still in is for you to take the lead as your family head when it comes to the weekly family study. Slowly but surely you can introduce critical thinking to your wife week by week in a very subtle form. This didn't work for me because I had mentally and physically left the cult years before I tried to reach my wife. I was already dead to her so I had no way of truly reaching her.

21

Foreign language field - the curious Watchtower cutback?

by slimboyfat in

most of the recent watchtower cutbacks can be explained as money saving exercises: closing branches, paperback books, fewer pages in the magazines, sending bethelites home and so on.. but a few different posters have reported that the watchtower society are also cutting back on the foreign field ministry.

for many years foreign language congregations have been a major source of growth for the watchtower in many lands.

so why would they choose to scale it down?.

outsmartthesystem

"I know that Jah and the 'loving' GB love the English speaking JW's more than all others. That is why the 'new' NWT is only available in English."

You got that right! I remember back in 2008 when they disbanded the congregation bookstudy arrangement. The GB said it was a "loving provision from Jehovah" because He saw that times were tough and with the poor economy and gas prices etc etc.......the holy spirit directed that the book study should be moved to the same night as the ministry school and service meeting. I recall everyone in our congregation marveling at how timely this announcement was. Yet all I could think about was........what about those poor brothers and sisters in Africa that have to walk through crocodile waters just to get to the meetings? Why weren't THEY important enough to scale back the number of times we meet each week?

39

I need help when answering proof of WT being only religion

by DS211 in

ok so i have already been talked to about this and i always have difficulty finding a retort.

my friend/elder condtantly tells me to visit bethel to prove its gods org--efficient, obedient, loving place, yadda yadda.

and he also uses how many go out and preach the same message, how no matter where you go youll get the same loving treatment, follow the bible as best they can (ha), show lots of love, do t celebrate pagan holidays, etc etc.

outsmartthesystem

"And he also uses how many go out and preach the same message"

What message? That God is going to lovingly kill billions of people if they don't become JWs? And is preaching the SAME message really that important? Prior to 1914 the message was that the end was coming in 1914. Prior to 1925 the message was that soon the "faithful men of old" will be resurrected in 1925. When I was young, the cover of the Awake magazine said that it was "God's promise" that those that saw the events of 1914 would be alive when armageddon comes. Etc etc. Does having unity with your message.....or should I say.....conformity......trump the ACCURACY of it? Jesus said to worship with spirit and TRUTH. Not spirit and conformity to a flawed message.

"how no matter where you go youll get the same loving treatment"

How loving is that treatment in reality? The love is paper thin based on how well you are towing the organizational line. Stop going to meetings and stop going in service and see just how strong that "bond of love" really is. Their love is purely conditional.

"follow the Bible as best they can"

Many people claim they do the same. What makes them different aside from the idea that they have faith that THEIR doctrinal beliefs are the CORRECT ones? And do JWs follow the bible according to their understanding.....or do they simply believe what they are told to believe by the FDS (thus putting their trust in men)?

"do t celebrate pagan holidays"

There is a September 2003 Awake magazine that discusses the history of the pinata. It makes sure to mention that pinatas are steeped in pagan origins. But the magazine interestingly goes on to mention that those origins have long since faded and pinata has in recent times taken on a completely new and innocent meaning. Therefore it is up to each christian to decide how they feel about pinatas. Well.....if pinatas aren't condemned because their original pagan ties have long been lost......then why should we feel any differently about any other holiday that has similarly lost its pagan ties? Why the hypocrisy? Why is it ok for JWs to wear wedding rings (Egyptian paganism)? Why is it ok to feed each other wedding cake? (fertility) Again. Why the hypocrisy?

You need to train yourself on how to spot logical fallacies. go to www.jwfacts.com to help you learn what to look for.

35

Why doesn't the GB come out with specific rules on counting time

by trujw in

i think we all know the reason millions of less hours.

when i was in we went to a rv by the kingdom hall then drove 30 minutes out to the country to knock on a door then back to the city for one more door.

god must be so proud!

outsmartthesystem

Because such strictness would make them sound like a cult! They allow just enough "personal" freedoms amongst the R & F to convince said R & F that they aren't a cult. This is one they can point to. I discussed this with an elder once. He was so happy to be part of the organization because "although you have to have faith in Jehovah's arrangement of counting time......the arrangement isn't strictly policed".

And there you have it. Control the minds and actions of the sheep. Then give them back a little bit of meaningless "freedom" and then they won't even recognize they are being controlled.