One beings miracle is a higher beings accident, lol
Druid
JoinedPosts by Druid
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21
What do you think of this argument?
by Druid ini stopped being a jw altogether when i went into college and took philosophy classes and started thinking for myself.
i understand a lot of you former jw's are still theists, in fact it seems probably the majority of you are.
i am agnostic, meaning i don't feel there is enough evidence for against either cause to subscribe my lifestyle to one belief.. .
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21
What do you think of this argument?
by Druid ini stopped being a jw altogether when i went into college and took philosophy classes and started thinking for myself.
i understand a lot of you former jw's are still theists, in fact it seems probably the majority of you are.
i am agnostic, meaning i don't feel there is enough evidence for against either cause to subscribe my lifestyle to one belief.. .
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Druid
I agree the anthill, if thought about in more detail (like you pointed out) ruins the argument. I probably should have just said "complexity is relative" and hoped people understood what I meant. Does anyone have a better illustration to demonstrate how complexity is relative to intelligence?
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21
What do you think of this argument?
by Druid ini stopped being a jw altogether when i went into college and took philosophy classes and started thinking for myself.
i understand a lot of you former jw's are still theists, in fact it seems probably the majority of you are.
i am agnostic, meaning i don't feel there is enough evidence for against either cause to subscribe my lifestyle to one belief.. .
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Druid
My goal really is to get people thinking, noone is going to change their beliefs in one conversation. If you can think of a better example for the ant > human > god thing let me know, i was trying to make it simple to get the point accross, but maybe someone more skilled with words can understand my point and rewrite it better.
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21
What do you think of this argument?
by Druid ini stopped being a jw altogether when i went into college and took philosophy classes and started thinking for myself.
i understand a lot of you former jw's are still theists, in fact it seems probably the majority of you are.
i am agnostic, meaning i don't feel there is enough evidence for against either cause to subscribe my lifestyle to one belief.. .
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Druid
I stopped being a JW altogether when I went into college and took philosophy classes and started thinking for myself. I understand a lot of you former JW's are still theists, in fact it seems probably the majority of you are. I am agnostic, meaning I don't feel there is enough evidence for against either cause to subscribe my lifestyle to one belief.
The biggest arguments I have for a JW, to turn them agnostic are as follows:
JW Argument: Jehovah is for sure real because look at how complex our world is, this couldn't have possibly came about on accident! Life happening the way it is now on accident through a "big bang" would like a tornado going through a junkyard and assembling a 747!
My rebuttal: Complexity is all relative. For example. If a human to Jehovah is the same leap as an ant to a human, then consider this:
Ant spends a year with 1000s of other ants building an ant hill. Upon completion of the project, the wind blows a nearby mound of dirt into a very similiar shape. In the ant's extremely limited understanding of the universe, this random reaction of two elements seems like a miracle because it created someone just as complex as it spent a year building.
Humans spend the last two hundred years perfecting optics from a pinhole camera to digital technology, yet it is still inferior to the human eye. The human eye must be intelligently created because it is so complex (to us), how could it possibly be created on accident?
God (or his equivalent) looks down at the humans on earth (ants) and see's us spending 200 years trying to perfect a mechanical eye (ants building an ant hill), then laughs when we marvel at the human eye, when to him it was just celestial wind blowing particles together that created it.
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JW Argument: There is no way the universe got here on accident, after all everything has a maker, how could it just appear one day?
Rebuttal: How was god never born, but always existed? You readily accept that as being unfathomable so you accept it knowing it is beyond human wisdom to understand. How can you accept one Paradox but not another? How is an all powerful being that has no beginning and no end any harder to imagine than a universe creating itself from an explosion of particles?
I am not an atheist, like I said I am agnostic. But this is the argument I give any JW relatives when they ask me why I no longer believe.
I look at it like this, both Atheism and Theism cannot be proven, and cannot be disproven. If they could either be proven/disproven, the only people that wouldnt believe the proven one would be the same people that eat glue and lick windows.
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21
New here
by Druid inhi guys, long time lurker first time poster.
i will give you a summarized version of my background so as to still stay somewhat anonymous.. .
i was never baptised, but i grew up having most of my life stolen to the society.
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Druid
I'm still in school, I joined the military and took some time off for that (since it will pay for everything now). I doubt he is an undercover apostate, he was raised in the truth himself. I think he is just business minded and despite lacking the ability to think freely, is extremely intelligent and sees the point in things like college. I guess I find it hard to believe an undercover apostate would stay in, I mean if he was undercover wouldn't he have at least confided in me? When I asked to meet him he took backup with him. The only thing I notice about talking to him as opposed to my parents is I NEVER hear him try to quote a scripture or anything, ever. He only mentions the society to me in a conversation when it's relavent to something hes telling me, not to preach in any way, except for the time he brought the backup with him. We also seldom talk, only when one of us needs something from the other (business reference, trade advice, etc).
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21
New here
by Druid inhi guys, long time lurker first time poster.
i will give you a summarized version of my background so as to still stay somewhat anonymous.. .
i was never baptised, but i grew up having most of my life stolen to the society.
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Druid
Well realistically, if you are concerned with the best interested of the org, both should be avoided and treated as poison, but if people have an emotional attachment its a loophole they can hang onto so as not to disown their friend/family member. Like I said, my old best friend (now a MS I think) ignores me like the plague, but a current elder still talks to me and even considered sending his DF'ed son to live with me, though in his defense I don't think he knows the extent of my apostasy.
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21
New here
by Druid inhi guys, long time lurker first time poster.
i will give you a summarized version of my background so as to still stay somewhat anonymous.. .
i was never baptised, but i grew up having most of my life stolen to the society.
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Druid
Hi guys, long time lurker first time poster. I will give you a summarized version of my background so as to still stay somewhat anonymous.
I was never baptised, but I grew up having most of my life stolen to the society. I went through a period in my childhood where my parents were disfellowshipped.... I wasn't allowed to hang out with witness kids during that time....because well they couldn't hang out with me cuz my parents were df'ed, and I couldn't hang out with wordly kids either cuz it was always "oh we are going to the meetings next week! (not)"
I also moved around a lot, forced to only make friends in the congregation, but due to the isolation I had in the above paragraph I had horrible social skills and failed at making any real friends. I ended up working for an elder in the cong. who owned a business, he mentored me and gave me the foundation I have today, inspired me to finish my "homeschool" and actually go to college ( I never planned to, but this business minded elder actually encouraged me to).
He had high hopes for me as his young business prodigy but being a kid I slacked off, and ended up taking a year off before college at 18 and did all kinds of naughty things. I pretty much started fading when I moved away from my parents to live with a wordly family member (my parents moved far away and I wanted to stay in the area I was going to go to college in). So I basically moved jurisdictions to a different body of elders when I moved in with the relative and never bothered to go to that cong. effectively going off the radar to most people until a former best friend checked up on me and found out I was in limbo, he refused to talk to me after that.
Ironically however, the elder that mentored me still continued to talk to me. From 18-21 I stopped going to meetings but in the back of my head I had guiltyness even though I still sinned. It wasn't until I look a logic class in college that talked about fallacies and such that I said "hey that sounds a lot like the WTBTS" then I started thinking freely and became an agnostic. I actually wrote a few college papers on theories that disproved religions such as Jehovah's Witnesses.
As time went on I told my old mentor that I wanted to have lunch with him and tell him my doubts about the society and see what he thought, he sounded sympathetic but when I met him for lunch he took another Watchtower special agent with him for backup. I immeadietly started dps'ing with my logical argument and his backup casted "fake bible shield" and started healing my mentor as he used circular logic attacks until we both ran out of mana and ended up at a stalemate.
So basically, my parents and my old mentor both know I am an apostate, but since I was never baptised my parents insist I can't technically be an apostate, and I guess they use this silly loophole to stay in contact with me, though any time I bring up my views it turns into a 5 hour phone argument. Even my former mentor, the elder, still has some common sense and has limited contact with me despite my apostate views, and even seemed ok with me living with his now disfellowshipped son (He is kicking him out of the house), which is odd because as a witness parent, especially an elder, you would think they wouldn't want their kid they want to come back to the truth hanging out with an apostate.
I think he uses the same loophole of "I was never baptised so I am just an opposed non-believer than can be witnessesd to" lol
Anyway, I have been lurking this place for a few years so a lot of you are familiar to me... I guess its like when you watch a TV show for a long time and the cast finally see you, the viewer lol