Posts by Trauma

The one thing not recognized here is, that we have only hear-say and
accusation from questionable sources as to what is going on. In all cases
recorded in the Bible, those who took action had direct and truthful
knowledge, either by witnessing it themselves, or by divine revelation. I
have neither of those to go on. So, not having accurate and positive
knowledge, I can truthfully rely on Jehovah to "Make matters right".

If I become convinced of the facts in these cases then, yes, I am obligated
to speak out. But not until then. We do not want to become like the nations,
or those whose whole agenda is not love, but to tear down and cause
division. Love builds up, but hate tears down. NO person can be moved to
love and fine works on the basis of lies and half truths.

Since most of the matters that Charlie has been sending to me and the rest
of you concern matters that are not in my area of the world or in my
congregation, there is nothing for me to speak out against. Those brothers,
both the elders in the various congregations and those who oppose them will
have to stand before Jehovah and Jesus Chris on their own merits. Why get
heated up over this wicked world when the true commission for us is to do
good and preach the word. We can use these events as warnings for ourselves
not to get caught up in wickedness. Some things are beyond our power to
resolve, and in such times, we do need to rely on Jehovah, if we truly
believe in him.

But, what is in our power to accomplish, is to teach others how to truly
love Jehovah and Jesus Christ, and how to serve them in a righteous manner.
When we teach love, we fulfill the requirements of the law. All other things
are just a distraction from our main purpose. If I were directly involved
with these other events, then I would speak the truth whether for or against
the Brothers in Question.

My reply:

Well just watch the papers and news next thrusday or friday, and you will see just how local this problem is. I personally know at least 3 people that have been sexually abused in my area. Bill Bowen has over 5000 documented cases, outside of the WTS's database. You do realise the WTS has never denied having a pedophile database, they just dispute the numbers in it. And how exactly is standing by the way side, and letting elders re-victiomize rape victims teaching love? Let me quote you what Chris wrote in response earlier, I'm not sure you were on that e-mail, and he brilliantly sums it up. BTW the ex-elder that will be doing the Press Conference here in Seattle, is Bruce Baker, who has served on the main Assembly Board for the Assemblys at the Tacoma Dome for many years, and you have probibly seen him give talks. He was known for giving really good talks. Anyways if you think turning a blind eye to this sort of thing, your are seriously ignorant of the facts, I can send you many links to facts. Did you bother viewing the video link I sent you of CNN last week? You think people just go on TV, and admit to being molested for fun? If you see Bill Bowens face on the interview, you can read him like a book, I thought he was almost going to cry at one point, he kept his cool, but you can tell he was really angry and sad. I've had many conversations with him in E-mail and by voice on the phone, he as never advocated taking the WTS down, he has advocated reform. He was disfellowshipped for causing devisions, after he made every effort possible to try to reach someone with any sense at the HQ, finally having to go public with his information, because it bothered his concience that no one was doing anything about it internally. And since noone there is listening, he had no choice but to go public, because that is the only way you can put preassure on an organisation like this, to change, these kinds of things have happened in the past all the way to luther, and protistant heritage where the WTS came from. The only time real change happens, is when you embarass the people in power into making changes. Dad I suggest you pick up a book on cult de-programming, you will see a big paralell with the fear based religion that is the JW's, and any other fear based religion, like the moonies. Or get a book on mind control techniques practiced by governments in the 50's, you will also see big paralells.

Brothers Reply to my Dad:

Actually, I would be inclined to agree with you on this point if it
weren't for the fact that the evidence seems to be much more than just
here-say. There are substantial numbers of witnesses coming forth not
only disfellowshiped ones but those who worked in the legal department
at bethel dealing with these cases. Several of these cases have been
recognized by the courts as having been proven and major legal action is
being taken against the society on a number of fronts. At first I
thought is was just a bunch of hear-say but after considering much of
the evidence it seems to have a lot more concrete footing in solid
evidence and testimony from scores of witnesses. It's hard to ignore
that. If it were only a few people who just seemed bent on slandering
the witnesses I would just brush that aside. Unfortunately it seems to
be much more substantial than that. In particular that seems one of the
reasons the media has clomped on to this so forcefully. I think the
society really needs to step back on this one and say, "we were wrong"
and correct the error. It keeps making them look worse and worse to
deny it in the face of such strong evidence.

Dad's Response :P

Yes, but once again, it is not our fight. At some point, these brothers will
have to make a defense of their actions before Christ, as will we all!

Brothers response to him:

I disaggree that it is not "our fight". While I wouldn't use the word
"fight" I would use the word "defense". If you were standing in a room
watching another brother molest a child would you step in and tell him
to stop and defend the child or would you say, "Jehovah will take care
of it. I can just stand back and wait?" It sounds like a dumb question
doesn't it. That's how dumb the answer of standing back and doing
nothing sounds. What is the difference if the abuse is happening at
this moment or happened in the past or will happen in the future if we
don't stop it. Either way, if there is substantial solid evidence that
abuse is happening and certain policies have allowed for some abusers to
work the system and continue to do so, we are obligated to at least
speak out against those who are committing injustices and refuse to
change such endangering policies... Especially those who are carrying
Jehovah's name.

We are followers of Christ are we not? Remember how Jesus reacted to the
money changers in the temple? He was furious at those who were using
the Temple dedicated to Jehovah as a money making scheme charging people
outrageous prices. Tell me this, which would cause Jesus to be more
furious the money changers or the allowance of the abuse of children?
Again, are we not told to "become imitators of Christ"? I KNOW that
Jesus wants all of his servants to have the same zeal and Jealousness
for Jehovah's name that he had.

Could you imagine if that was your son or daughter? Are we not all
supposed to be one family in love through Christ? I agree that if
something is just hear-say we should be careful to avoid making it
bigger than it is. However, at the point that something becomes much
stronger than hear-say we run into a very uncomfortable decision making
point in our lives. Do we do what's more comfortable for ourselves, or
do we sacrifice our own comfort to support principles of justice and
righteousness? I do not advocate the "overthrow" of the Society, nor do
I advocate leaving the Society. I do not agree with those who look for
any small excuse to smear the good name of most JW's. However, what I
do advocate is that the society change policies that allow for Sexual
abusers to roam freely through the congregations and put children at
risk, and I advocate "cleansing" those who are polluting the
organization. To not change such policies is to continue to smear the
name of Jehovah.

Dad's response urggg:

Asking if I would defend a child being molested in my presence is stupid and
insulting! You know I would, but that is not the case, nor is it the case
with these others! WE EACH DO ACCORDING TO OUR OWN CONSCIENCE BASED ON
PERSONAL INVOLVMENT. That is the key. All other things outside our direct
involvement become the providence of Jehovah. What is stupid? To say we have
to act because Jehovah lacks to power to do so, or to have real trust that
he has both the power and the will to right these wrongs?

That these wicket people are using religion to hide their bad acts, is
disgusting! But the Society is saying the same thing and condemning the
practice. If they are hiding wrong doing, Jehovah will reveal it, and he
will punish these wrongdoers. What is it that you want me to do. Should I
get on an airplane and go to New York and execute the governing body?
Should I take out public adds condemning the Society for complicity in
covering up crimes? That is already being done! You and Charlie keep missing
the point. When using the example of the money changers, did you miss the
point that Christ was actually there. What record do we have that he was
angry about a "reported rape" or "child molestation case"?

Don't pervert the truth that Christ wanted us to learn by trying to bring
emotional arguments about my children into the picture. The truth is, that
if my Children were molested, I would take it to the Police first (just as
those brothers and sisters should have done) and then if I had the
scriptural 2 witnesses, I would bring them under formal charges before the
congregation. If I didn't have the two witnesses, I would inform the
brothers so that the offender could be watched. If they fail to follow
through, who is at fault, me or them?

You have told me that you would take personal vengeance out on the
perpetrator for your children, but isn't that an admission that you don't
trust a righteous outcome from Christ? Although you say you trust in the
forgiveness of Christ, wouldn't it be better not to have to be forgiven in
the first place? And, is this really the law of love we are commanded to
learn? Are we not under law to strive for perfection, even if we are not
able to be perfect yet?

Why are we wasting all this energy and time on things that are beyond our
power. I have more important things in my life, that is to learn about my
responsibilities before God and Christ.

My response:

Because Dad it is not "Beyond our power" if I protect just one child, then I have accomplished something, that is one less person that will have to go through the rest of they're life being haunted by memories what happened to them, it will be one less person that is re-victimized by the society. What you fail to see, is the cold hard facts about this, it's not just the society not doing anything about it, it's the society systamatically re-victimizing these kids. By this I mean, there are many, many, many documented cases where the elders did not go to the police, suggested the child/teen keep it quite so as not to bring reproach on Jehovah's name, and even being threatened with disfellowshipping, and being disfellowshipped. It is simply wrong for any man in the society that is not a trained pyschologist to handle these kinds of cases, they simply do not have the training. Do you have any idea what a person has to go through in a Judical Commity meeting if they bring up these kinds of charges? I've read many cases, and well the people running the JC's sound like out and out perverts themselves in these cases, for the details they want to know about the molestation that takes place. How would you feel if you were a kid, and you had to go in front of some elders and give graphic details of what happened to you at the hand of a molester? To tell them that Mr. "Elder in good standing" sodomized you. You know our sister was molested, I can't believe you would not have rightous anger towards the person that did it, nobody would fault you if you did take the bastard out. I personally think rapist of any kind should be put to death, I think molestation is worse than murder, at least if your dead, you don't go on suffering for the rest of your life. The more media attention that happens the better, this will shame them into changing things, how do you know this is not what Jehovah is doing to "cleanse" the org? The WTS even talks about theocratic warfare, you can't have warfare with out warriors. Do you really think Jesus would fault anyone for standing up for what is right, in the face of resistance, this is not about bringing down the society, this is about changing it, this is about standing up for what is right, standing up for the truth in the face of opposition, not to be silent, but to proclaim what is the truth loadly for all to hear. And to protect those who can't protect themselves.

30

Great response by my brother to my JW Family

by Trauma_Hound in

jw
friends

he does take care of matters in his due time.. (1 samuel 2:12-17) now the sons of e'li were.

attendant of the priest came and said to the man.

be an old man in your house.

Trauma_Hound

To the outside, it's slow, but internally no, it's not slow, he's marrying a catholic girl. LOL

30

Great response by my brother to my JW Family

by Trauma_Hound in

jw
friends

he does take care of matters in his due time.. (1 samuel 2:12-17) now the sons of e'li were.

attendant of the priest came and said to the man.

be an old man in your house.

Trauma_Hound

Yes I'm proud of him, but he's still a tad big arogant, a JW throwback.

30

Great response by my brother to my JW Family

by Trauma_Hound in

jw
friends

he does take care of matters in his due time.. (1 samuel 2:12-17) now the sons of e'li were.

attendant of the priest came and said to the man.

be an old man in your house.

A little background, I have been very outspoken, in my support of silentlambs to the majority of my JW family, I have passed along many news articles, press releases etc via e-mail. My little brother is in fade mode, is an ex-MS.

This is what my aunt and uncle sent me in response to one silentlambs post:

See below, 1Sam.2:12-17 & 22-34, just in case you
haven't read it lately. Here it is showing that when
some one is doing what Jehovah doesn't appove of, that
He does take care of matters in His due time.

(1 Samuel 2:12-17) Now the sons of E'li were
good-for-nothing men; they did not acknowledge
Jehovah. 13 As for the due right of the priests from
the people, whenever any man was offering a sacrifice,
an attendant of the priest came with the three-pronged
fork in his hand, just when the meat was boiling, 14
and made a thrust into the basin or the two-handled
cooking pot or the caldron or the one-handled cooking
pot. Anything that the fork might bring up the priest
would take for himself. That is the way they would do
in Shi'loh to all the Israelites coming there. 15
Also, before ever they could make the fat smoke, an
attendant of the priest came and said to the man
sacrificing: "Do give meat to roast for the priest so
that he may receive from you, not boiled meat, but
raw." 16 When the man would say to him: "Let them be
sure to make the fat smoke first of all. Then take for
yourself just whatever your soul may crave," he
actually said: "No, but you should give it now; and,
if not, I shall have to take it by force!" 17 And the
sin of the attendants came to be very great before
Jehovah; for the men treated the offering of Jehovah
with disrespect.

(1 Samuel 2:22-34) And E'li was very old, and he had
heard of all that his sons kept doing to all Israel
and how they would lie down with the women that were
serving at the entrance of the tent of meeting. 23 And
he used to say to them: "Why do YOU keep doing things
like these? For the things I am hearing about YOU from
all the people are bad. 24 No, my sons, because the
report is not good that I am hearing, that the people
of Jehovah are causing to circulate. 25 If a man
should sin against a man, God will arbitrate for him;
but if it is against Jehovah that a man should sin,
who is there to pray for him?" But they would not
listen to the voice of their father, because Jehovah
was now pleased to put them to death. 26 All the while
the boy Samuel was growing bigger and more likable
both from Jehovah's standpoint and from that of men.
27 And a man of God proceeded to come to E'li and say
to him: "This is what Jehovah has said, 'Did I not for
a fact reveal myself to the house of your forefather
while they happened to be in Egypt as slaves to the
house of Phar'aoh? 28 And there was a choosing of him
out of all the tribes of Israel for me, to act as
priest and go up upon my altar to make sacrificial
smoke billow up, to bear an eph'od before me, that I
might give to the house of your forefather all the
offerings made by fire of the sons of Israel. 29 Why
do YOU men keep kicking at my sacrifice and at my
offering that I have commanded [in my] dwelling, and
you keep honoring your sons more than me by fattening yourselves from
the best of every offering of Israel my people? 30 "'That is why the
utterance of Jehovah the God of Israel is: "I did indeed say, As for
your house and the house of your forefather, they will walk before me to
time indefinite." But now the utterance of Jehovah is: "It is
unthinkable, on my part, because those honoring me I shall honor, and
those despising me will be of little account." 31 Look! Days are coming
when I shall certainly chop off your arm and the arm of the house of
your forefather, so that there will not come to be an old man in your
house. 32 And you will actually look upon an adversary [in my] dwelling
amid all the good that is done to Israel; and never will there come to
be an old man in your house. 33 And yet there is a man of yours that I
shall not cut off from being at my altar so as to cause your eyes to
fail and to make your soul pine away; but the greater number of your
house will all die by the sword of men. 34 And this is the sign for you
that will come to your two sons, Hoph'ni and Phin'e.has: On one day both
of them will die.

And this is my brothers response to them, woah he's starting to talk out alot now himself.

Just because jehovah DOES take care of matters in his own time doesn't
give people an excuse to continue doing it. Neither does it give ANY
TRUE witness an excuse to sit back and say. Oh, jehovah will deal with
it. If you read the bible you will see that those who were truly
zealous for jehovah ALWAYS spoke out and acted against injustice and
wrong doing. Look at all the prophets who were killed by the Jews and
kings of Israel. The Kings of Israel were the ANNOINTED servants of
God. However, when they started walking the wrong path, Jehovah put it
into the hearts of his prophets to prophesy against them and try to
disuade them from their wrong path. Remember, EVERYONE will be judged
by their own ACTION and/or INACTION... Sense of JUSTICE or lack there
of. Jehovah guides his servants. He also guides his people/servants to
speak out against injustice and wrongdoing from those who represent his
name. Read ALL of the Hebrew scriptures closely and you will NEVER find
ANY reference to a servant of Jehovah using "Jehovah will take care of
it" to sit back and not worry about injustices being carried out in his
name.

109

Dr. Bergman

by Jerry Bergman in

i have now read the section that deals with me.

all i can say is i am amazed!!!

don't my critics have any concern about the facts???

Trauma_Hound

Currently my Cousin is disfellowshipped, she is trying to get re-instated, I believe it was because she tried to kill herself, by slashing her arms, up along the viens, she has been diagnosed as bi-polar, but she is very depressed. She wasn't even allowed to attend the reception of her brothers wedding, only the wedding itself and this I believe has made her even more depressed. Talk about loving eh? I wish I could be there to encourage her, I may try to give her a call at least, as she lives in Indiana and I live in Washington state.

Edited by - Trauma_Hound on 2 September 2002 4:13:0

44

Opinons Please--Church-State division?

by patio34 in

i saw this in this morning's news on lucianne.com.

they have a posting opinion section and 100% of the people were against this guy.

1) should there be a more absolute division of church and state in the u.s.?

Trauma_Hound

I don't have a problem with that, the reason being is it's not one chaplan of one denomination, there are multiple denominations, including non-christian. And I think soldiers should have some kind of support during they're stay in the military, I mean military bases are really small city's on to themselves, and should the soldier be on his death bed for whatever reason, it should be available to him. Congress has plenty of churches around it, and congress doesn't go into combat.

44

Opinons Please--Church-State division?

by patio34 in

i saw this in this morning's news on lucianne.com.

they have a posting opinion section and 100% of the people were against this guy.

1) should there be a more absolute division of church and state in the u.s.?

Trauma_Hound

My tax money should not go to supporting any religion period, if they want to pay a chaplain, then they should pay it out of they're pay checks, not mine.

4

Alleged stalker of Serena arrested

by Trauma_Hound in

.

Trauma_Hound

Have you seen european socker fans? LOL

24

Woman Dragged Out Of Window By Demon!!!!

by SYN in

oh dear.

jwzone never fails to deliver, and the only thing that can make me laugh when i have a hangover this bad (sucky thing is, i don't even drink!

) is a post like the following from that haven of dubiness:"size matters not," to borrow a phrase.

Trauma_Hound

All I would said, is prove it, LOL. They must have been licking the lsd laced micky mouse stickers again.

Trauma_Hound

Posts by Trauma_Hound