QUANTUM

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Posts by QUANTUM

• 
  163

  Anti-Evolutionists Wanted !!!!

  by Francois in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  there is an evolution question bubbling up down the threads a little way, and it minded me to try to really get to the nub of the opposition to the technique.. i would like to pose very serious questions, and i hope they attracts serious, considered responses - once and for all.. why is it impossible, in the minds of anti-evolutionists, that god did indeed create us, the earth, the sun, and everything around us including the entire physical universe, and that evolution was his technique; evolution as a divine technique?

  how do you know, how are you so certain that's not the case?

  how would you explain your opposition to god if he told you personally that, yep, that's the way he did it alright?.

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  QUANTUM

  SS

  Another counterfeit "X" enters the land of the non compus mentus with francios leading the way.

  One of the x purveyors of deception and now a bewildered cosmonaut of extreme ideas I presume....... eh ss?

  QUANTUM: EMINENT BEYOND COMPARISON!
• 
  163

  Anti-Evolutionists Wanted !!!!

  by Francois in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  there is an evolution question bubbling up down the threads a little way, and it minded me to try to really get to the nub of the opposition to the technique.. i would like to pose very serious questions, and i hope they attracts serious, considered responses - once and for all.. why is it impossible, in the minds of anti-evolutionists, that god did indeed create us, the earth, the sun, and everything around us including the entire physical universe, and that evolution was his technique; evolution as a divine technique?

  how do you know, how are you so certain that's not the case?

  how would you explain your opposition to god if he told you personally that, yep, that's the way he did it alright?.

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• 

  QUANTUM

  larc:

  So good to hear from you. francios is on some fanatical rampage. A bizarrerie, or illusionary board game he's adapted to this forum. Your entrance into the game is probably going to be no more fullfilling or enlightening than what has thus far preceeded. francios, as well as most others, is ignoring the uplifting and edifying contribution I have made to this otherwise bleak and confused puzzlement which only schizophrenics and the delusional seem to comprehend.

  I have centered my remarks around accurate definable parameters, while everyone else is caught up in a childs game of who can come up with the most radical mockery and impersonation of accepted and attested formulae.

  QUANTUM THE INCOMPARABLE!!!
• 
  163

  Anti-Evolutionists Wanted !!!!

  by Francois in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  there is an evolution question bubbling up down the threads a little way, and it minded me to try to really get to the nub of the opposition to the technique.. i would like to pose very serious questions, and i hope they attracts serious, considered responses - once and for all.. why is it impossible, in the minds of anti-evolutionists, that god did indeed create us, the earth, the sun, and everything around us including the entire physical universe, and that evolution was his technique; evolution as a divine technique?

  how do you know, how are you so certain that's not the case?

  how would you explain your opposition to god if he told you personally that, yep, that's the way he did it alright?.

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  3. 
• 

  QUANTUM

  D8TA:

  did i say something to upset you clever boy?

  Q
• 
  163

  Anti-Evolutionists Wanted !!!!

  by Francois in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  there is an evolution question bubbling up down the threads a little way, and it minded me to try to really get to the nub of the opposition to the technique.. i would like to pose very serious questions, and i hope they attracts serious, considered responses - once and for all.. why is it impossible, in the minds of anti-evolutionists, that god did indeed create us, the earth, the sun, and everything around us including the entire physical universe, and that evolution was his technique; evolution as a divine technique?

  how do you know, how are you so certain that's not the case?

  how would you explain your opposition to god if he told you personally that, yep, that's the way he did it alright?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  QUANTUM

  Only Honest People Should Read This post!

  This thread has combined some good, bad and some "UGLY" points which have little bearing on what I have come to conclude are the genuine issues brought up here about the reality of GOD and what he does for a living and how he does it. I did not determine this by asking the question, but most of you have, whether you want to admit it or not.

  For most of you, this is your interminable question which you have always been asking but have not been able to find the answer to. For some, your search is leading further and further away from many of the truths found in the Bible, to reckless, free wielding sometimes bizzar ideas, which carry you in the opposite direction from where the truth can be found.

  If I say the Bible is where the answer to your search lies, this becomes a tiresome and intolerable sermonizing for most, since you've all been there before. But I have also heard the tedious, monotonous, prosaic treadmill and the irreligious quakery of which many of you project.

  Many of you seem to think that any irresponsble unsubstantiated thought that enters the vacuum of your minds has the same validity as true scholarship and tested theories. That all of the "ologies" are of no worth to you because you have the right to determine in your own uneducated brain all the facts of life for yourself, disregarding the fact that most of the things you are now so proudly exclaiming have been thought of long before you, and have been as well, disgarded.

  If the uninformed want to ignore the historicity and the evidentiary nature of what brilliant men and women have discovered by actually getting off their butts and making genuine meaningful contributions to this world....... then my pleading to what ever is left of one's innocent search for truth is pointlessly talking to the spiritually dead.

  The separate issues being discussed in this thread have each important contributions to make for our understanding of our world and the GOD who made it. I often write inflamatory remarks that ruffle a few feathers and will probably continue to do so. I can also expect to get some thrown back in my face. When I detect what I feel is deception and someone is trying to run away with the marbles, I will generally try to expose them.

  Evolution is no more an exact science then religion definitively answers the question about the reality of GOD. But each offers certain evidences. The athiest has absolutely no leg to stand on because no one can prove a negative. If an athiest says there is no GOD how do you go about prooving it. Can you go to the eternal reaches of time and space to try and find HIM? Obviously not. on the other hand there are numerous evidences for the existence of GOD as well as the possibilities for evolution. The side we take has more to do with influence than our personal, independent discovery.

  The evolutionists have a leg up on most religions because It has been a "POPULAR" theory for over a hundred years and it is "COMPLICATED"....and we all know that man loves a "comlicated mystery". The Greeks loved their philosophies because they not only became complicated but it became fun to explore any off the wall fantasy the mind of man could ponder. The theory of evolution, however, is not without huge gaping holes. These holes are what most religionists usually attack as their DEFENSE for creationism. What they usually promote as the validity for the biblical account of the creation is faith. So their answer against evolution and for creation is an attack on the holes of evolution and the, so called, unrealistic proof of faith.

  Now we have another underpinning for the evolution idea. For those who want to have their cake and eat it to, lets just combine the two. This way we can get along with the scientific community, we no longer have to shy away from the discussion and ...FAITH?...well we never had much anyway so what does it matter. Here to, this is hardly a"NEW" pandor's box.

  The sad part of all of this is the Bible doesn't loose, just those who cave in to the pressure.

  FAITH and how it is found and applied is what's really at issue. Most people when they think or refer to FAITH are, without realizing it, talking about "blind" faith. The kind of FAITH referred to by Christ and the Apostles was FAITH received by the witness of the HOLY SPIRIT. And here I'm not talking about the FORMLESS gobblee goop the JW's think is "Holy Spirit", but HE is a member of the GODHEAD who's mission it is to be a WITNESS and TESTIFIER of all truth. Once a person is able to excersize enough humility and FAITH this witness will reveal the truth of all things unto him..VERY FEW PEOPLE HAVE HAD OR EVER WILL RECEIVE THIS GIFT. THEY JUST DON'T HAVE WHAT IT TAKES.

  So the bottom line is that few of you will ever be able to enjoy this kind of faith and will merely go down the same lost road you're now on. Eventually to learn the truth, but for most, it will be too late. Not to worry though. It seems in spite of yourselves GOD is still going to give you more than you ever expected, you just won't get what you might have had if you followed the rules.

  Now for those who have become tired of playing our little game in this thread because you have lost interest in biblical based religion and would rather have discussions with people who share your own kind of paltry paranoia, you can stick around and have a remote chance of learning something or you can turn it off and continue suffering from ignorance and stupidity.

  QUANTUM THE GREAT!!!!!
• 
  163

  Anti-Evolutionists Wanted !!!!

  by Francois in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  there is an evolution question bubbling up down the threads a little way, and it minded me to try to really get to the nub of the opposition to the technique.. i would like to pose very serious questions, and i hope they attracts serious, considered responses - once and for all.. why is it impossible, in the minds of anti-evolutionists, that god did indeed create us, the earth, the sun, and everything around us including the entire physical universe, and that evolution was his technique; evolution as a divine technique?

  how do you know, how are you so certain that's not the case?

  how would you explain your opposition to god if he told you personally that, yep, that's the way he did it alright?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  QUANTUM

  francios:

  I wish I could have got this to you before you left> but here it is anyway.

  It is clear to me you haven't lost the old JW technique of defining all of the criteria and parameters that everyone else is to measure up against. No other argument can be made or entertained, based on your preconceived set of rules, which will NOT be ridiculed and made to sound foolish by a distinctly out of step understanding of things no one else can grasp or would ever want to. [ typical of the doctrines of the WTS]

  This is the left over kind of brain washed mentality that you and many ex JW's are fraught with. I deal with this sort of narrowmindedness on a daily basis and am here on these boards to specifically keep reminding you and others of this mental and character flaw. Many of you have keen minds with possibilities of making real contributions to others.But if you can't or won't wake up from this deep hypnotic state, I see little hope for you.

  QUANTUM!!!!

  Edited by - QUANTUM on 7 July 2002 22:34:35
• 
  163

  Anti-Evolutionists Wanted !!!!

  by Francois in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  there is an evolution question bubbling up down the threads a little way, and it minded me to try to really get to the nub of the opposition to the technique.. i would like to pose very serious questions, and i hope they attracts serious, considered responses - once and for all.. why is it impossible, in the minds of anti-evolutionists, that god did indeed create us, the earth, the sun, and everything around us including the entire physical universe, and that evolution was his technique; evolution as a divine technique?

  how do you know, how are you so certain that's not the case?

  how would you explain your opposition to god if he told you personally that, yep, that's the way he did it alright?.

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  3. 
• 

  QUANTUM

  francios: and others

  [1 COR 1:20-29]
  Where is the wise? where is the a scribe where is the b disputer of this c world ? hath not God made foolish the d wisdom of this e world ?
  
  For after that in the wisdom of God the world a by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of b preachin to save them that believe.
  
  For the Jews require a a signe and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
  
  But we a preach Christ b crucified , unto the Jews a c stumblingblock , and unto the Greeks foolishness;
  
  But unto them a which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the b power of God, and the c wisdom of God.
  
  Because the a foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
  
  For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the a flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are b called :
  
  But God hath chosen the a foolish things of the world to b confound the wise; and God hath chosen the c weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
  
  And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
  
  That no flesh should glory in his presence.

  "What we have here is a failure to communicate...."

  My poor spelling shouldn't be an issue but I'll make a better effort in proof reading my posts.

  First of all, francios, you make a blanket statement which is totally ungrounded. That religion always looses to science. I can turn that 180 and ask the same of you. Actually, religion used to win all of the arguments but has lost some of it's zing lately not just because of science itself but also politics. The scientific elitists of the world whether in universities, medias or what have you, temporarily hold the upper ground. Grants are more often than not, given to these intelectuals for their compliance with the popular view. Few theologians with solid scientific background get in on these elitist forums to present their finds. However that does not mean they don't have forums of their own and carry weighty arguments. But winning or loosing is a matter of degree, beliefs, and perception. I personally believe that science is beginning to catch up with certain theological truths and will finally support what the revealed word of GOD has declared all along. ie. Mankind are the literal offspring of God {virtually of the same race of beings}; that the many forms of life came by a creation which took place over a period of time { which is clearly stated in the original hebrew ...not 7 days but 7 time periods}; That all things were created spiritually before they were created temporally ( clearly advanced in scripture); And that Jesus Christ was the Creator of all things under the direction of His Father and our Father.

  The "cave man" and dinosaur thing...why does that have to do with whats recorded in the Bible. God is a creator. the fact that we are on a planet that has been around a very long time with a fossil record we don't understand on how or why they are here ..has absolutely nothing to do with genesis.

  Quantum!!!!

  Edited by - QUANTUM on 7 July 2002 17:50:40
• 
  163

  Anti-Evolutionists Wanted !!!!

  by Francois in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  there is an evolution question bubbling up down the threads a little way, and it minded me to try to really get to the nub of the opposition to the technique.. i would like to pose very serious questions, and i hope they attracts serious, considered responses - once and for all.. why is it impossible, in the minds of anti-evolutionists, that god did indeed create us, the earth, the sun, and everything around us including the entire physical universe, and that evolution was his technique; evolution as a divine technique?

  how do you know, how are you so certain that's not the case?

  how would you explain your opposition to god if he told you personally that, yep, that's the way he did it alright?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  QUANTUM

  How about science not being able to show one sintilla of evidence which provides the movement from one species to a higher order. It is an established fact that the geologic layers appear fully established without any evidence of a gradual changing from a lower to a higher order.

  Further, please don't give us that nonsence about religion winning no arguements with science. That is purely wishful thinking and deceptive on your part. Many scientists are coming over to the side of religion because of the lack of science being able to answer the IMPORTANT questions. Like you the hell am I, why am I here and whats next? Getting with the program is a matter of perception. Don't pout francios when your philisophical jargen falls apart.

  QUANTUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
• 
  163

  Anti-Evolutionists Wanted !!!!

  by Francois in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  there is an evolution question bubbling up down the threads a little way, and it minded me to try to really get to the nub of the opposition to the technique.. i would like to pose very serious questions, and i hope they attracts serious, considered responses - once and for all.. why is it impossible, in the minds of anti-evolutionists, that god did indeed create us, the earth, the sun, and everything around us including the entire physical universe, and that evolution was his technique; evolution as a divine technique?

  how do you know, how are you so certain that's not the case?

  how would you explain your opposition to god if he told you personally that, yep, that's the way he did it alright?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  QUANTUM

  Well, I must say to francios and some of the others. I don't think you read or understood my last post. I was under the impression that we were all using the same set of rules when defining our positions where evolution is concerned. Many started to go there own way by bringing into to the diatribe philosophical clap trap....the Ancient GREEKS would be rolling in uncontrolled laughter. They wrote the book on extremism and none of you come close. Give it up!

  From purely a Biblical stand point, my argument cannot be contested. If you bring in personal unsubstantiated philosophy, then you should go some place and play with your bubble blower alone. I for one do not give a diddle for some lame argument based on a persons "OWN FEELING" about something. There are no original or virgin thoughts. Only those which have been through the fire of trial and repeated examination have any right to be entered for further analyzing. Puny thinking is for the pro JW boards.

  When it comes right down to it, few of you have any real education so you resort to "PERSONAL VIEWS" which demonstrate the brain washing you endured...but not too well. A few try to put on a masquerade of education but you finally resort to children stories and bubble gum when you run out of three and four letter words. I felt the dialogue was moving quite extraordinary considering the interference by some of the nurslings.

  QUANTUM!!!
• 
  163

  Anti-Evolutionists Wanted !!!!

  by Francois in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  there is an evolution question bubbling up down the threads a little way, and it minded me to try to really get to the nub of the opposition to the technique.. i would like to pose very serious questions, and i hope they attracts serious, considered responses - once and for all.. why is it impossible, in the minds of anti-evolutionists, that god did indeed create us, the earth, the sun, and everything around us including the entire physical universe, and that evolution was his technique; evolution as a divine technique?

  how do you know, how are you so certain that's not the case?

  how would you explain your opposition to god if he told you personally that, yep, that's the way he did it alright?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  QUANTUM

  Francios:
  Paul, in speaking on the resurrection, refers to the different qualities of flesh as follows: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, and another of fishes, and another of birds. (1 Cor. 15:38-39.)[KJV] These different qualities seem to be inherent in the several species, as much so as the properties of silver, gold, copper, iron, and other minerals are inherent in the matter in which they are contained, whilst herbs, according to their kind, possess their specific properties, or as the leading properties of earth, air, and water, are distinct from one another; and hence, on physiological grounds, this principle being admitted, and it cannot be controverted, it would be impossible to take the tissues of the lower, or, indeed, of any order of fishes, and make of them an ox, a bird, or a man; as impossible as it would be to take iron and make it into gold, silver, or copper, or to produce any other changes in the laws which govern any kind of matter. Self initiated doctrine, which is not remotely found in the BIble, which completely ignores all the revealed truth, is simply a caving in to secularism and their bumbling and forever changing theories. Are GODS ways different or greater than our ways.......The contention I have always had with JW's is their incredible lack of understanding the DOCTRINE of FAITH which is so COMMANDINGLY stated in the Bible I can hardly believed it could be so disregared or over looked. Their is hardly a thing which is upon this earth that cannot be compared to every other thing. Ones eyes are blue like the sky...does that make us related? in some ways it does. but even Darwin was worried that many of the things he saw in nature did not add up. The list is long and I will not produce it here. It also seems to be an inherrent problem with ex JW's that they can't fully break away from the falacious doctrines that the WTS brainwashed them to begin with. To know the things of GOD cannot be known simply by reading the Bible. I refer you to one scriptures which will lead you to the many possibilities. {JAMES 1:5} As far as GOD putting a little spec like a very small computer chip in something like DNA, which somehow contolled evolution, is an off the wall concept demonstating the "foolishness of man"...pure fiction with no regard to the available science or Biblical evidences. Facts never change, but the inferences from them are changeable. The careful man does not become so enamored of an hypothesis or a theory that he cannot distinguish it from a fact. Theories of science can no more overthrow the facts of religion than the facts of science. One cannot build a faith upon the theory of evolution, for this theory is of no higher order than any other inference, and is therefore in a state of constant change.
  

  The theory of evolution as presently taught posits that higher forms of life arose gradually from lower stages of living matter. Inheritable genetic changes in offspring are assumed to be spontaneous rather than the result of arranged or directed forces external to the system.

  This theory conflicts with a basic law of chemistry, the second law of thermodynamics, which states in part that it is not possible for a spontaneous process to produce a system of higher order than the system possessed at the beginning of the change.

  An example of a spontaneous process is a boulder that dislodges from a mountaintop and rolls down the mountain. The only way to get the boulder back up the mountain (thereby increasing its height, or the order of the system) is for energy outside the system to be expendedsuch as someone directing the process by seeing that the rock is carried up the mountain.

  We see improved strains and varieties of plants and animals developed through judicious selection of their parents. But we would have to agree with those who understand the limitation defined in the second law of thermodynamics limitation that such changes can only occur if guided or if outside energy is available to improve the system.

  I believe all of those scriptures that pertain to the creation of man. But the decision to believe is a spiritual one, not made solely by an understanding of things physical, for we read that the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. ( 1 COR. 2:14)

  It is incumbent upon each informed and spiritually attuned person to help overcome such foolishness of men who would deny divine creation or think that man simply evolved. By the Spirit, we perceive the truer and more believable wisdom of God.

  As for your ignorance about "ORDER"...... Many verses can be quoted where GOD is instructing someone to..." put their house in order......set in order....to be done in order....etc.,etc,....anyone using a grain of brain matter would conclude that if GOD wants us to be orderly in conducting our affairs it's because HE does and is. Like I said, I jumped the fence and didn't read all of the posts but I think I have a handle on them now. Finally, I will conclude this tome with a remark about the Atonement which someone else brought into the discussion. What a strange phenomenon! Why does it seem that the most important principle of our existence is almost totally misunderstood or at best, ignored? It is as if someone had died and left us a bequest in which we have no interest, since accepting it would entail a change in our life-style.
  
  Through the centuries, while heated controversy and debate have raged over evolution, atheism, the sacraments, the Trinity, authority, predestination, faith and works, etc., there has been virtually no argument or discussion at all about the meaning of the Atonement. Why were there no debates or pronouncements in the synods? People either do not care enough or do not know enough even to argue about it. In matters of atonement, the scriptures engage us in a very serious, thoughtful, and lifelong project; but the minimal involvement which makes for popular religion plainly shows that something has been removed which has caused the Gentiles to stumble. It was known from the beginning that the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehend[eth] it not. ( JOHN 1:5 ) He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. ( JOHN 1:10-11)
  
  So why bother with this hopelessly unpopular doctrine? Because there are always some who do accept it: But as many as received him, to them he gave the power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. { JOHN 1: 12-13}
  
  That makes them the children of God before they lived in the flesh, and what more consummate at-one-ment than to resume their status as sons of God? For their sake, it was all worth it. If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. { JOHN 15:24} The Atonement makes it possible for all men everywhere to live again with there Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ. Not all will be worthy of this gift but some will. { It will be a great many more than the false doctrine of 144,000 preached by the Anti Christ..WTS.}I myself am in real danger because of my propensity for sarcasm. The Bible is one of the spring boards which help us understand the mysteries of GOD but I assure you there are others. QUANTUM
• 
  163

  Anti-Evolutionists Wanted !!!!

  by Francois in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  there is an evolution question bubbling up down the threads a little way, and it minded me to try to really get to the nub of the opposition to the technique.. i would like to pose very serious questions, and i hope they attracts serious, considered responses - once and for all.. why is it impossible, in the minds of anti-evolutionists, that god did indeed create us, the earth, the sun, and everything around us including the entire physical universe, and that evolution was his technique; evolution as a divine technique?

  how do you know, how are you so certain that's not the case?

  how would you explain your opposition to god if he told you personally that, yep, that's the way he did it alright?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  QUANTUM

  The literature of the Bible is often overlooked in favor of some doctrinal issue. The Bible has been written by many authors and in many styles as I'm sure you are aware. However, I have had a certain amount of contention with those who take the Bible literally only when it serves their doctrinal persuasions, but do not when that would interfear with their beliefs.

  To believe God is not aware of certain situations which happens on HIS created world or worlds is absurd. On the one hand we will give to GOD his deity beyond mans understanding and on the other take it away simply because some old jew for literary emphesis makes a little story out of his rendition. Or, GOD himself is telling the story so man ( being so far below GODS intellect) can better equate mans relationship to HIMSELF. Like Abraham and Sodom & Gamorah.

  I know how the JW's interpret these verses in the Bible where some angels came as messangers for GOD to see what was going on as if GOD had no idea etc.. This is a typical literary form often used in the bible. I am reminded of a kind of obscure scripture found in Matthew 17:27 (KJV) where Jesus sends Peter on an errand for some money he is to find in the mouth of a fish. If jesus wanted some money he could just as well pulled it out from behind Peters ear. The point being< CHRIST and GOD know everything at all times , places and circumstances. It is biblical if you take the time to reseach it. He lives in the infinite and enternal world which is continually before him. He doesn't have to scratch his head and ask what's going on. His knowledge and understanding surpasses all we will ever know. To think that He goes through a process of finding things out similar to the way we have to, is not grasping the full understanding of GODS omnicience. It is a fault in man to interpret the Bible totally as written. That is why there are sects on top of sects with differing opinions on matters like these.

  Computers are made which are contiually monitoring certain functions in certain pieces of machinery. some of these are more complex than others. Are we to assume man can make computers to do more than GOD? THINK ABOUT IT!!!!

  QUANTUM