i occasionally pop through here to catch up on the latest, but this time i'm going to pop my own post on here.. some of you internet oldsters may even remember this.
my first experience on the internet regarding discussions about jehovah's witnesses and the watchtower took place on a now-obscure usenet group, before i eventually stumbled across hourglass2.. during those days, there was a poster who went by the name "prominent bethelite," an otherwise anonymous individual whom i remember most for an extensive, exhaustive compilation of date-oriented remarks, predictions, and expectations by the watchtower organization down through the decades of its history.. it became known as "the list" and it's definitely lengthy... but a fascination look at the abundance of errant statements made through the watchtower's history.. if you're curious, it's been available for a long time on hourglass2's site, and can be seen using the link provided below.. the list, compiled by prominent bethelite (1999).
that's about it for this stop through here.
Anyone manage to get the Key to Publications link to work? I'm getting this error
----------------------
The requested URL /historical/the-list/list7_key.htm was not found on this server.
Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.
Sorry about that. I've corrected the issue, Dis-Member.
—Timothy Kline
i occasionally pop through here to catch up on the latest, but this time i'm going to pop my own post on here.. some of you internet oldsters may even remember this.
my first experience on the internet regarding discussions about jehovah's witnesses and the watchtower took place on a now-obscure usenet group, before i eventually stumbled across hourglass2.. during those days, there was a poster who went by the name "prominent bethelite," an otherwise anonymous individual whom i remember most for an extensive, exhaustive compilation of date-oriented remarks, predictions, and expectations by the watchtower organization down through the decades of its history.. it became known as "the list" and it's definitely lengthy... but a fascination look at the abundance of errant statements made through the watchtower's history.. if you're curious, it's been available for a long time on hourglass2's site, and can be seen using the link provided below.. the list, compiled by prominent bethelite (1999).
that's about it for this stop through here.
I occasionally pop through here to catch up on the latest, but this time I'm going to pop my own post on here.
Some of you internet oldsters may even remember this. ;)
My first experience on the internet regarding discussions about Jehovah's Witnesses and the Watchtower took place on a now-obscure usenet group, before I eventually stumbled across Hourglass2.
During those days, there was a poster who went by the name "Prominent Bethelite," an otherwise anonymous individual whom I remember most for an extensive, exhaustive compilation of date-oriented remarks, predictions, and expectations by the Watchtower organization down through the decades of its history.
It became known as "The List" and it's definitely lengthy... but a fascination look at the abundance of errant statements made through the Watchtower's history.
If you're curious, it's been available for a long time on Hourglass2's site, and can be seen using the link provided below.
The List, compiled by Prominent Bethelite (1999)
That's about it for this stop through here. As for Hourglass2, yes, it's still around, although I've never figured out how to get the massive array of pre-2000 posts (I have 6 CDs filled with the H2O's archives, which, unfortunately, are in wwwboard format) up online for those who might be interested in the debates and discussions that were going on in those days. The board itself has never experienced a resurgence of any sort, and goes through stages of its own with the discussions, but that's fine, too. Sometimes, it's about the nostalgia. Sometimes, it's about a quiet room where you can hear yourself think.
Anyhoo, thank you for your time.
Timothy Kline
i have looked and looked for ways to move them to a flash drive or cd for protection in case my computer would go out - but all i seem to be doing is getting frustrated by this.. so far the only way i can seem to save them is to copy and paste to a word processor file - then save to my flash drive - very time consumming and slow.
thoughts?.
jeff
I have been using Inachis' e-Backup for a few years. Been VERY reliable. It's no longer being updated, but it handles favorites and other things, too.
http://www.inachis.com/index.htm (Free)
Hope this helps, Timothy Kline
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i spent the better part of my witness career going there twice a year.
anyone familiar?
Greetings sKally,
You wrote, "This statement struck me as very profound and something only dreams are made of:
If a person can't see past their own belief system to see the next person as a human being and fellow creation of God, then it doesn't matter how much Truth you have, because you have none. Even people who don't believe in God (a belief system, nonetheless) can demonstrate love, which is why Love transcends belief systems and differences.
I wish you well Timmy."
I'm not saying I live in some dreamy, perfect world, or that I am the example to look to. I get upset, angry, resentful, and all the rest of the turbulent emotions that we get. But it doesn't stop me from at least trying my best to stop thinking about what *I* feel, what *I* am thinking, what *I* believe long enough to at least try to see it from the other person's perspective. I have so much to learn from others, and so much to lose if I don't avail myself of such a limitless resource.
Someone sent me a portion of the H2O archives today, which afforded me an opportunity to look back across the years and see that at least one particular individual has much to learn in this regard and their speech and dealings with others--even those who disagree with them. While I will not say more on the open board, I PMed you not too long ago, so you know of whom I speak (I hope). This characteristic remains in spite of changed views, and unfortunately is not conducive to the levels that a serious examination of issues relating to faith and belief systems requires. But in seeing that tendency towards hostility and judgmentalism so prevalent after even as many years since it was first exhibited on H2O, it serves as a warning to me personally, reminding me that I have no desire to see myself engage in that sort of approach to others. And, perhaps, it has been the motivating factor in my decision to withdraw from all of the debating and arguing and fighting that has become center stage on the three message boards which I am most acquainted with out here in JW/exJW land (Pathways Online, Robert's DB, and Al's DB).
I want only peace, insofar as I can obtain it. Let others fight these wars over who's apostate and who's loyal to the Watchtower. I'm just not interested anymore. I know I'm an apostate of the Watchtower organization and its theology. Robert's an apostate of the Watchtower organization but not its theology.
That makes me, not Robert, the greater threat to the Watchtower and "Jehovah's Witnesses"; so those complaints being lodged against me are substantiated. I am the figurative "Apostate Extraordinaire," as some have called me of late. Not because I am trying and have always tried to empower others to try to figure things out for themselves--but because in doing so, I am undermining the very theology of Witnesses, which says you can't do those things, that you can't know the truth in absentia the Watchtower Society. I deplore claims to having truth that do not allow for my testing them, and to the end of my days I will put everything to the test...and allow anything I say, write, or claim to be tested by others as well. Approaching things in that way may still not get us any closer to the truth, but it will teach us some things not only about each other--but about ourselves as well.
Submitted for your perusal,
Timothy Kline
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i spent the better part of my witness career going there twice a year.
anyone familiar?
Greetings 'sKally,'
You asked, "Let me ask you this then, do you feel that your association with Robert weakened your spirituality or shifted it in any way?"
No, not at all.
But as a former Witness, I can see how Robert's writings would appeal to Witnesses who are discovering that there are problems within the organization, because he addresses issues relating to the problems within the organization while retaining the concept that Witnesses are Jehovah's modern-day people.
If anything, my association with Robert has done more shift to my reputation online by spawning a new array of attacks on me, as well as made far more Watchtower loyalists aware of me and my views than formerly knew of me. People do not seem to understand that I can carry out my duties as a webmaster and site administrator and yet not agree with the views of the person I am doing these things for. As I previously noted, Robert and I disagree on some very fundamental teachings. But I don't make our disagreement an issue, either. He's doing what he feels he needs to do, and I have my own pathway to walk, so to speak. Would I do anything for him as a fellow human? Absolutely, because my life as a Christian compels self-sacrifice. Would he do the same for me? Absolutely. Christian love is the epitome of survival and endurance in my book. If you don't have that, you don't have anything. If a person can't see past their own belief system to see the next person as a human being and fellow creation of God, then it doesn't matter how much Truth you have, because you have none. Even people who don't believe in God (a belief system, nonetheless) can demonstrate love, which is why Love transcends belief systems and differences.
Hope this helps.
Submitted for your perusal,
Timothy Kline
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i spent the better part of my witness career going there twice a year.
anyone familiar?
Greetings 'SKally,'
You asked, "If I may ask, why were you disfellowshipped?"
I had, from the very start of my own crisis of faith and conscience in 1998, been fairly forthcoming with the various elders about my concerns and disagreements with certain teachings and claims being made by the Society. But it wasn't until they became aware of my business ties with Robert King and the e-watchman site that the local elders began to take serious interest in me. At first, it was more about my affiliation with the e-watchman site, and then, finally, this past May or so, they brought out all of my published writings and views that I have expressed online and used that as justification to disfellowship me on grounds of apostasy--even though they had been aware of those views for the past 7 years. They knew they had no legal grounds to disfellowship me because of my working relationship with Robert, so they resorted to the things that I had written. One elder was particular upset over my article on the Watchtower Society's use of propaganda, saying that only politicians use propaganda.
In any event, at the end of our two-hour session at the Holt Congregation kingdom hall in the meeting room, they asked if it would be okay that I step outside the room while they discuss the matter amongst themselves, to which I said, "Well, if you really need to take that long..."
After about five minutes or so, I was invited back in, and they told me they felt they had no other option except to disfellowship me (for apostasy). I assured them that it was alright and that I understood why they felt it necessary to do so (which I do), and I thanked them for their time.
All-in-all, I have no bitterness towards them, and they were very appropriate towards me, except for the one elder who kept trying to provoke me into an argument. I think it was a necessary part of my own personal spiritual walk to be rejected like that by the last remaining organized religion that I thought at one time might be my last stop towards Jehovah. I've since learned that the answer (at least for me) is not going to be found within the fences of organized religion, even though I do see its benefits for most Christians.
And, like I told the elders on several occasions, Robert is right on some things, wrong on others--but that's no different than the Watchtower being right on some things, and wrong on others--at least in my perception in accordance with the Bible. That I agree with him on some things does not make me his follower any more than the fact that I disagree with him on some things constitutes my being his enemy. The fact is that he and I happen to have very different views (as is obvious to anyone who has ready my articles or read my posts at Pathways Online) when it comes to the Bible.
Hope this helps.
Submitted for your perusal,
Timothy Kline
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i spent the better part of my witness career going there twice a year.
anyone familiar?
Greetings Jeff,
You wrote, "I remember driving down the road to the Assembly hall - and thinking that Holt must be the 'city of churches'. I wish I had stopped at one of them and learned something at that point. Instead I went ahead and got my semi-annual brainwashing."
I'm sure the doors were always open for you to stop in.
I think that organized religion as a whole fails miserably because of our in-born tendency to rely upon being told and directed as to what to think, feel, do, and believe. Most individuals are not of the sort to risk venturing into the great unknown, apart from the formulations of organized Christianity. I have to honestly say that there wasn't a complete waste to my time with "Jehovah's Witnesses," as there were often positive reminders given about Christian living. But, like all other branches of Christianity, it was all mixed in with traditional views, prophetic interpretations, and customary policies that marked one as part of that group and not any other.
Does that constitute "brainwashing"? Well, even Christianity itself requires one to eliminate "wrong ideas and thinking" from one's mind and conform to a particular approach to life and belief--so does that constitute "brainwashing"?
The dilemma is not in what "Jehovah's Witnesses" teach that is right or wrong (every Christian group has its own right and wrong teachings), but in where it leads. The "unique" teachings are designed to direct a person to the Watchtower Society has the "appointed channel" that Jehovah has established on the earth today to let men know His will. That is the source of its greatest power, and yet its greatest failing.
Regards,
Timothy Kline
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i spent the better part of my witness career going there twice a year.
anyone familiar?
Yes, I attended there but that was before I was disfellowshiped a few months ago, Jeff. I attended the Holt Congregation Kingdom Hall, as well.
Don't you ever check your email?
morloc
