so during my research on the wts, i stubled across a link to the july 15th watchtower.. .
http://download.jw.org/files/media_magazines/w_e_20110715.pdf.
i'm assuming that the study editions are the ones that they only give to members/ those who attend meetings.. .
In the first toolbar in the text editor, there is a dropdown that says "styles." Highlight the text you want to quote and click that dropdown, and you should see it says "quote." That will put the text into a quote box. Try it.
You can also do the indented kind of quoting using the button in the second toolbar with the quotation mark symbol.
Ahhh, I see.
Kind of clunky, will have to get used to it.
Thanks.
so during my research on the wts, i stubled across a link to the july 15th watchtower.. .
http://download.jw.org/files/media_magazines/w_e_20110715.pdf.
i'm assuming that the study editions are the ones that they only give to members/ those who attend meetings.. .
Can someone please tell me how to quote?
Probably an obvious place I should be clicking, but I'm having trouble spotting it.
@Listener: I didn't even spot that, I was too caught up with the little bits and peices. Sure they had a chuckle over that.
Ok, time to continue wading through this crap.
"Will You Heed Jehovah's Clear Warnings?"
13(18) Always be on guard, Satan is always out to lead you astray.
15(18) Satan wants to silence JWs. He tries to distract and divide them by making them do such things as "gadding about" and forwarding non-essential emails. We have no right to tell other people how to live their lives (must have been pissing themselves laughing as they wrote that). Idle and troublesome behaviour distracts us from kingdom preaching. If we aren't supporting Jehovah and his work, we're supporting Satan.
16(18) Keep busy with kingdom work so as not to fall prey to Satan.
"I Feared Death- Now I Await Life In Abundance"The long, rambling recollections of an old Italian witness. Not much propoganda here, but I'm sure anyone who can stifle the yawns as they read through it may be able to spot a few gems.
"God's Rest- What Is It?"
5 (24) The purpose of the 7th day "is for the earth to be inhabited by obedient men and women who will take care of it and all life upon it".
15 (27) Don't be disobedient.
16 (28) "We can enter into Jehovah’s rest —or join him in his rest— by obedientlyworking in harmony with his advancing purpose as it is revealed to us through his ORGANIZATION".
17 (28) "If we minimize the Bible-based counsel that we receive through the FAITHFUL AND DISCRETE SLAVE CLASS, choosing
to follow an independent course, we would be placing ourselves at odds with God’s unfolding purpose"
"God's Rest- Have You Entered Into It?" 1 (28) Don't rebel. Be ready to obey.
7 (29) Proverbs 4:1 “The path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established".
9 (30) I'm just going to copy and paste the whole paragraph, it's gold:
In modern times, there have been refinements
in our understanding of certain
Bible teachings. This should not trouble us;
it should bolster our confidence in the faithful
and discreet slave class. When representative
members of the “slave” discern
that our viewpoint on some point of truth
needs to be clarified or corrected, they do
not hold back from making the adjustment.
The slave class is more interested
in cooperating with God’s unfolding purpose
than in shielding itself from criticism
over an adjusted understanding. How do
you react when an adjustment in our understanding
of the Scriptures is presented?
—Read Luke 5:39.
10(29) Jehovah wants you to preach from house to house.
11(29) Be obedient. Get out of your comfort zone and preach house to house even if it makes you uncomfortable.
12 (29,30) Talks about the disfellowshipping of a son who decides to sin instead of worship Jehovah.
13 (31) Tries to use the bible to support disfellowshipping. Disfellowshipping a close family member is painful.
14 (31) But as with in the example, the family members who are still JWs have no choice in the matter. It's the fault of the one who was disfellowshipped.
16 (31, 32) We must love Jehovah more than unfaithful family members.
17 (32) Disfellowshipping helps apostates etc. come to their senses.
21 (32) Faithful older members of the “great crowd” have served Jehovah for decades, many never expecting to grow old
in "this system of things." But they don't give up, because Jehovah will keep his promise... some day.
so during my research on the wts, i stubled across a link to the july 15th watchtower.. .
http://download.jw.org/files/media_magazines/w_e_20110715.pdf.
i'm assuming that the study editions are the ones that they only give to members/ those who attend meetings.. .
"Will You Follow Jehovah's Loving Guidance?"
This article didn't seem to have much in the way of propoganda or buzz words, but it lays the foundation for the next article, which is a different story entirely.
Please not that with the study articles, I won't be counting how many paragraphs are on a page and labelling things with "P.X Para X" like I did with the article above, rather, I will simply provide the little superscrpt number at the beginning the paragraph, and I will provide a page number for those who want to skip straight to it. So, for an imaginary example, 13 (12) would mean paragraph 13 of the article (found on page 12).
"Will You Heed Jehovah's Clear Warnings?"
3 (15) A warning against false teachers. Who are these teachers? Take a look at paragraph 4...
4 (15) Some false teachers may come from the congretation, these are APOSTATES. They're out to steal you from the congregation and turn you into one of their own disciples! Like "ravenous wolves", false teachers (and especially apostates) are out"devour trusting members of the congregation, destroying their faith and leading them away from the truth".
5 (15, 16) False Teachers (apostates) are cunning. They "sneak in" corruptive teachings. They are like smugglers, operating clandestinely introducing apostate views. They use "counterfeit words" and "false arguments" to try and pass off their teachings as "the truth". They spread "deceptive teachings" and "twist the scriptures".
6 (16) Avoid false teachers (and apostates, especially those damn apostates). Apostates are "mentally diseased" and actively try to "infect others" with their "disloyal teachings".
7 (16) Don't greet, allow visits from, read literature from, watch tv programs featuring, read websites by, or comment on the blogs of false teachers (apostates). We love Jehovah's ORGANIZATION. Don't be "soured" by anyone who would speak against the ORGANIZATION.
8 (16, 17) Stay loyal to the ORGANIZATION.
10 (17) Satan uses religous lies and godless myths to sidetrack the unsuspecting.
11 (17) Such lies include the teachings of Christendom, which pretends to be christian. i.e. the trinity, hellfire, the immortality of the soul. Christendom promotes pagan traditions.
Damn, time to leave work, will continue this tomorrow.
so during my research on the wts, i stubled across a link to the july 15th watchtower.. .
http://download.jw.org/files/media_magazines/w_e_20110715.pdf.
i'm assuming that the study editions are the ones that they only give to members/ those who attend meetings.. .
So during my research on the WTS, I stubled across a link to the July 15th Watchtower.
http://download.jw.org/files/media_magazines/w_E_20110715.pdf
I'm assuming that the study editions are the ones that they only give to members/ those who attend meetings.
This is the first time I have sat and read through a full watchtower, and the first time I've laid eyes on a study edition.
I was pretty surprised by just how many chances they took to refer to apostates and disfellowshipping.
Do most study editions have this kind of "hidden message" (well, not so well hidden, as you'll see)?
Or are all study editions full of anti-apostate, pro-disfellowshipping propoganda?
I'll try to list as much of this as I can, as well as anything else that seemed to stick out to me.
"A Lengthy Legal Struggle Ends in Victory!"
P.4, Paragraph 1, Sentence 2: Second sentence of the first article, and already, the propoganda begins: "true Christians".
Throughout the whole first page of the article (page 4 of the magazine), anyone who opposes JWs is painted as being an oppresor of religous freedom.
P.4, Paragraph 4, Sentence 2: "... a group openly aligned with the Russian Orthodox Church filed a complaint accusing..." author is careful to note that the group is aligned with a church... dastardly christendom is up to no good again!
P.4, Paragraph 4, Sentence 3: "...claimed to be acting on behalf of family members who resented that their spouses or children had become witnesses" that group aligned with the church only CLAIMED to be acting on behalf of JWs' family members, and those family members didn't have any reasonable concerns about blood transfusion, shunning, nothing like that, no, they just down right resent JWs.
P.5, Paragraph 1: After 4 previous requests for a hearing are turned down, the granting of the fifth request is deemed "bizzare". Although it is a little unusual that the hearing was granted despite there being no evidence of criminal conduct, it may have had something to do with how persistently hearings were requested? Or with the fact that the JWs kept having these accusations pointed their way?
P.5, Para 2, Sen 2: "falsely alleged" assert means to assert without, or BEFORE proof. Maybe it's nothing, but that "falsely" doesn't really add much meaning to the sentence, just acts to give it a more pro-JW, anti christendom vibe.
P.5, Para 4, Sen 5: "...publications of the Russian Orthodox Church that severely criticize Jehovah's Witnesses" another jab at "christendom", no WTS publication would ever dream of criticizing other religions! /sarcasm
P.6, Para 2: This and the previous paragraphs paint the prosecution and its witnesses as inept an knowing little about JWS, obviously just out to get them, in cahoots with christendom etc. Sent 5 & 6 explain that a psychiatrist that had studied over 100 JWs found them to have perfect mental health, and that becoming a JW made them more tolerant of other religions. Do I even need to add a snide remark?
P. 7, Para 4, Sent 3 & 4: "...that announcement confirmed that members of the clergy were indeed deeply involved in the drive to ban the Witnesses" Fucking christendom, seriously, why can't it just leave those poor witnesses be?
P.8, Para 2: "A spokesman" for the Orthodox church admits that it doesn't like the JWs, and a "Muslim Leader" supports the ban. Would have been nice of the WTS to provide us with some names, so we could check the facts, but you know what they say about indepentant thinking...
And just look at the state of things, Islamdom and Christendom getting along, for once, just to drag the Witnesses down!
The rest of the article has a gem or two, but is mainly focused on the legal decision etc. Anyone who wants to do the last few pages is welcome, but reading it once was enough for me, trying to go through it twice is a struggle.
Next article in my next post.
hey all.. .
thought i'd introduce myself.. .
first, a disclaimer: i'm an athiest.. .
Thanks for all the advice guys.
Rebel 8, that's a pretty good strategy, I'm trying to steer the conversation in that direction.
Here is the latest back and forth between us, I won't repost earlier parts of the conversation, as it will make this post far too long, so for those who want to get up to speed, please see my previous posts. Also, for obvious reasons, I have edited out names and information that has no bearing on the conversation (chatter about family and friends etc).
HER:
Firstly well done in attaining these verses let me attempt an interpretation for you. All of Christendom teach that there is a spirit world that the dead hang around in, hence the catholic church for a more obvious example who pray to Jesus's mother Mary [and all the saints as well as though they are capable of helping them]. According to the Bible the dead know nothing,relevant scriptures are, Ecclesiastes9;5 and 10 where it is explained that' the dead are conscious of nothing at all' and also John 11;11 to 14 where Jesus explains to his disciples about Lazarus being asleep and when questioned further Jesus explains Lazarus is actually dead the point being that Jesus compares death to being asleep. The comparison of those that practice spiritism and Babylon the Great being the empire of false religion who practise just that, is what I am pointing to.
HER:
Am not sure what the abbreviations NIV and ASV refer to which bibles? However Jehovahs Witnesses did use the Old King James as their study aid until only quite recently 1961 (the girls are laughing at how old that is!) now use the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures which is a more accurate in my eyes translation and a little easier to understand because you know instead of just the word Lord they clarify whether or not it is Jehovah talking or Jesus. The word Jehovah (german translation thankyou Martin Luther,google the man very interesting account, ) or Yahweh was in the original Hebrew text about 7,000 times. Incidentally the pope in 2008 had the last reference to Gods name removed deeming it too holy for us commoners to pass through our lips.
HER:
Considering that Jehovah wanted us to know His name Romans 10;13 and I quote "For everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved" its a bit rough that the churches of christendom conceal this from people.
(Various chatter about family etc) ps keep up your study of the bible i am impressed.
ME:
(Various Chatter)
ASV is the American Standard Version
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Standard_Version
NIV is the New International Version
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_International_Version
Both are highly accepted versions, considered to be highly accurate translations.
You probably know a lot of what I am going to say next, but I'm mainly stating it to show you my thinking and how I have arrived at my own personal opinion on the matter, i.e. the name of god.
The superstition surrounding the name of god, the tetragrammaton, is not originally a Catholic teaching, but stems from Judaism, which holds it to be too sacred for common, everyday use. Biblical Hebrew usually does away with vowels, only noting them when they are of the utmost importance, when a pronounciation is unclear etc.
Since they held the word YHWH to be too sacred to say out loud, they would substitute its vowels with that of other words, in order to remind the reader to say this word instead. One of the most commonly used names was Adonai, "Our Lord(s)".
Yahweh is the closest we have to the proper pronounciation of the word (we may never know what it really was), unfortunately most bibles prefer Jehovah, which the large majority of scholars consider a mistake, produced by the substitution practice I mentioned above, compounded by the difficulties of translating from Hebrew to Greek and then to English.
I personally agree with the use of "Lord" and "God". This has nothing to do with the holiness or lack thereof of the tetragrammaton, but simple accuracy.
Some may argue that to have a personal relationship with someone, we must use their name, but this is hardly true. Some of the most personal relationships we have, for example, are with our parents, and how much of that closeness and intimacy would be taken away if our children talked to us on a first name basis?
Furthermore, what if our children didn't even pronounce our name correctly, but rather used a pronounciation that their school teacher insisted was correct?
I know that if I met someone who was in every way, shape and form my superior, I would feel very embarassed indeed if someone later pulled me aside and whispered in my ear "the truth is, you've been mispronouncing their name wrong all these years".
The bible itself warns of arrogance and pride in many places. Two such verses are:
1 Samuel 2:3 ASV
Talk no more so exceeding proudly; Let not arrogancy come out of your mouth; For Jehovah is a God of knowledge, And by him actions are weighed.
1 Samuel 2:3 NIV
Do not keep talking so proudly or let your mouth speak such arrogance, for the LORD is a God who knows, and by him deeds are weighed.
and
Proverbs 8:13 ASV
The fear of Jehovah is to hate evil: Pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, And the perverse mouth, do I hate.
Proverbs 8:13 NIV
To fear the LORD is to hate evil; I hate pride and arrogance, evil behavior and perverse speech.
It's a shame that the ASV uses Jehovah instead of Yahweh, or even better, YHWH, but it makes up for this with the accuracy it displays in its translation of actual verses.
Sorry, this is a very long message, and I am going back and forth between points as they come to mind.
But talking about accuracy brings me to your comment about the NWT.
I have heard the name, but never really had a look at it, nor researched how accurate it is. I'll read up on it.
You said, however, that it is used by the Jehovah's Witnesses, and from the way you phrased it, it makes me think that you consider endorsement by Jehovah's Witnesses a positive thing, which leads me to wonder, are you considering becoming a Jehovah's Witness?
I knew you were studying with (old JW woman's name) but was unaware that you had any intentions of joining any particular group/ organisation.
Also, I'm still unsure of where in Deuteronomy 18 it refers to Babylon the Great?
ME:
Ah, I didn't see your first message, I accidentally scrolled past it. I can see what you are saying about Deuteronomy condemning spiritism, spiritism, depending on your definition, being a part of many religions.
But this only supports Revelation if you choose to interpret Babylon the Great as religion, and work backwards to find scripture that refers to religion. Essentially, it is coming to a conclusion and then working backwards to find evidence to support it. Almost anyone can do this with almost any interpretation, but I feel it is far better to look at all the evidence we have, and then draw the best conclusion we can from it. We shouldn't ignore evidence simply because it challenges our preconcieved notions, nor should we refuse to cast aside a conclusion we have drawn, should new evidence come to light which proves it wrong.
The bible is actually a bit ambigous when it comes to the dead, as 1 Samuel 28 depicts King Saul requesting a necromancer to channel the Prophet Samuel, who complains about being awoken from his sleep. If we take death to be a sleep like state, then it stands to reason that we can wake from this state. Indeed, Samuel complains about being awoken from his sleep.
I'm not saying I believe in spirits of the dead, or any real ability on the part of humanity to be able to contact and commune with them, merely that reasoning from the scriptures could lead one to that conclusion. Parts of the bible, such as those you mentioned, indicate that the dead are for all intents and purposes unconscious, but other parts of the bible show the dead being consulted with, and then there are the verses about death being like sleep. However, we wake from sleep every morning, and can be awoken by nothing more than a thud in the night, so to my mind, comparing death to sleep actually weakens the death= "permananently unconscious and unaware" argument.
In Samuel 1 however, upon being summoned, Samuel does chastise Saul for his conduct, so I think it we can agree the bible is pretty consistent with its condemnation of spiritism.
I guess the real question is what does "spiritism" actually mean?
Thanks again to all those offering advice and info, and thanks to all those who just took the time to read this huge wall of text.
hey all.. .
thought i'd introduce myself.. .
first, a disclaimer: i'm an athiest.. .
I am trying to come at it from an "ignorant and willing to learn" angle, but without suddenly appearing to be too interested, since she knows about my atheism, and suddenly taking a huge interest in it may put up red flags.
*I replied to her:
That's the first time I've heard this interpretation of revelation and the end times (I'm going to call it and treat it as an interpretation of revelation since you are quoting revelation more than any other book, and revelation deals primarily with the end times, let me know if it's something else that you're getting at, I may be missing the point).
I'll read the verses you quoted (and the ones surrounding them), using a few different translations of the bible.
*Then slightly later:
I am looking through the quotes in the order they appear in the bible.
Deuteronomy 18:9-14, ASV
When thou art come into the land which Jehovah thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found with thee any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, one that useth divination, one that practiseth augury, or an enchanter, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a consulter with a familiar spirit, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For whosoever doeth these things is an abomination unto Jehovah: and because of these abominations Jehovah thy God doth drive them out from before thee. Thou shalt be perfect with Jehovah thy God. For these nations, that thou shalt dispossess, hearken unto them that practise augury, and unto diviners; but as for thee, Jehovah thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.
Deuteronomy, 18:9-14, NIV
When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the LORD your God. The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the LORD your God has not permitted you to do so.
I couldn't find a reference to Babylon The Great anywhere in Deuteronomy 18?
Am I missing something?
So how am I doing guys, am I coming across as too confrontational? Also, I think she must have made a mistake with the above bible quote, will have to wait and see which verse she actually meant.
@Party
Thanks for some good advice, do you have any good resources relating to 1914? I'm talking about stuff that is VERY difficult to argue against. It is going to take me a while to stumble across such info in my reading, since I have 3 books to get through, and this is while working and studying. If you could give me a link or two, I'd really appreciate it. What do you think of my back and forth with her? I'm trying to show a willingness to look at the bible, hopefully that will lure her in somewhat.
Also, say whichever you like. While I'm not a big fan of the phrase "god bless", I know you're saying it with the best intentions, and really, that's what matters.
hey all.. .
thought i'd introduce myself.. .
first, a disclaimer: i'm an athiest.. .
Ok Don, will read it once I finish with Crisis of Conscience.
Religion has been mankinds biggest problem world wide throughout history. Jesus said to love God and one another even your enemies not kill, maim and persecute. [ Mathew 22:37&38]
I replied:
I'm confused...
You say religion is mankinds biggest problem... but in the same breath you are quoting from (paraphrasing) one of the most famous religous texts of all time?
This was on her wall, but for whatever reason she chose to inbox me instead, and sent me this:
Correct, in the past Christendom would quote Bible text and then kill people any way. It is what the Bible describes as "Babylon the Great' the empire of false religion.Mathew24;5... for many will come on the basis of my name,saying,'I am the Christ,"and mislead many. Babylon the Great in the Bible is described as a woman who misleads all the nations by means of her' spiritistic practice' [Rev18;23] The Bible calls Babylon the Great 'a dwelling place of demons' in Rev18;2 and Deuteronomy 18;10-12. Babylon the Great has a deep hatred for true religion that she violently persecutes and even murders the witnesses of Jesus. Rev17;6 says 'and I saw the woman was drunk with the blood of the holy ones and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus.'
Both Kings and merchants are described as looking at Babylon the Great from a distance in the Bible at the time of her destruction. Rev 18;3,9,10,15-17. It is reasonable to assume that Babylon the Great is not a political or a commercial empire, but a religious one.
While she has yet to outright say to me she is a JW, her use of the terms, and what I from my family prove it.
But since I am still operating under the cover of not knowing, what should I do?
Would it be worth talking with her about those bible passages, and if so, does anyone have some insight on them an atheist wouldn't?
Or should I just ask "well then, what is the true religion?
It kind of shocked me that I was given what seems to be such a prepackaged, cookie cut argument.
hey all.. .
thought i'd introduce myself.. .
first, a disclaimer: i'm an athiest.. .
Everyone,
Thank you all for the replies and advice.
For those who asked, the girls are approx 13 and 15.
Both girls go with their mother to the meetings, and the younger stands up and comments... I don't know about the older one, from what I hear, while she is getting into the teachings, she is too shy to stand up in front of that many people.
I know that the younger one is an unbaptised publisher, and that they all have/ are organising blood cards.
I am about a quarter of the way through Crisis of Conscience.
What would you guys suggest is the next most relevant book to read, Captives of a Concept or Combatting Mind Control?
hey all.. .
thought i'd introduce myself.. .
first, a disclaimer: i'm an athiest.. .
Black Sheep, thanks for the advice.
The main thing that is going to "stumble" my efforts (sorry, couldn't help myself) is the fact that she knows I'm about as atheist as they come, so she may see my feigning interest as the ploy that it is.
hey all.. .
thought i'd introduce myself.. .
first, a disclaimer: i'm an athiest.. .
Hey all.
Thought I'd introduce myself.
First, a disclaimer: I'm an athiest.
Having said that, for anyone on here who holds a belief in the bible, I'm not here to attack you.
I'm here because I need help.
I work overseas, and my stepmother and two little half sisters are being steadily indoctrinated into the JWs.
I had been hearing bits and pieces from other family members, but today when I was on facebook, I saw not just some generic christian post from my stepmother, but this:
Religion has been mankinds biggest problem world wide throughout history. Jesus said to love God and one another even your enemies not kill, maim and persecute. [ Mathew 22:37&38] Followed by a nice helping of:
If people took the time to read what God says in the Bible and not the insidious things that religious sects including Christendom are teaching you will learn that God does have a plan to end this suffering in the world and it will happen, prophecies covering thousands of years have been fulfilled and are continuing to be fulfilled to this day. We are in the time of the end. The Prophecies are true.
I am currently reading Crisis of Conscience, and have been lurking around here for a while reading up on the WTS. I don't want to be seen as directly attacking the religion or organisation and end up being a "tool of satan", but I would like to say something to plant a seed of doubt in her mind.
Unfortunately subtlety and tact aren't my strong points when it comes to religion.
If anyone has any suggestions for an appropriate reply, or on a larger scale, how to combat the indoctrination, I would really appreciate it.
(From what I hear, she is commited to 30 hours a month field service, so she is already in pretty deep).
