Posts by NeonMadman

57

Let us discuss HOLY

by Terry in

ever searched for nostalgia items, collectibles or antiques on ebay, craig's list or some such venue?.

a lot of junk has become valuable with the passage of time.. yes, junk.. gradually it seemed to gather a mysterious inflation of valuation.. the items themselves receive wear and tear but they way they are regarded takes on an almost awesome patina of wonderful.. .

i'll give you an example.. i loved to play cowboy when i was a young kid; especially gunslinger/fast draw style.. my favorite guns were made by stallion.

NeonMadman

Now you're being silly! Proving a negative? Where are we, High School?

I didn't ask you to prove a negative. You are making a positive claim that nothing exists apart from what can be verified by scientific means. It seems to me that you need to offer evidence for that claim. Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence, especially when the thing being considered is, by definition, outside the scope of physical evidence.

Now you're becoming hysterical. (At least I had to laugh.)

I'm hardly hysterical. Though it is certainly easier for you to call me names than to admit that your presuppositions are no less faith-based than my own.

Set some standards for yourself, for crying out loud! How about this for starters: "I won't argue the existence of things which have no existence."

How about this standard for you: "I won't claim non-existence for things for which I have no scientific evidence, especially if those things are, by definition, beyond the scope of science." There was a time when protons were beyond the scope of science, and the human mind pretty much still is. That doesn't mean those things don't exist.

Are you saying it is unreasonable to think original autograph manuscripts of any Apostolic writings which a "heretic" was using to support non-Trinitarian teachings WOULD ACTUALLY SURVIVE??

So you can envision such a scenario for "heretical" writings being destroyed, but completely dismiss it for the canonical writings? Perhaps the autographs of the heretical writings didn't survive because they were not seen as valuable by those who received them? Interestingly, the writings of Arius are still extant, despite their "heretical" nature.

Beside that, your scenario smacks more of Dan Brown and the Da Vinci Code than it does of actual history. The council of Nicea had absolutely nothing to do with the organizing of the Biblical canon - that was established prior to the time of Constantine. It also did not affirm the Trinity, only the deity and eternality of Christ, which (contrary to Dan Brown) was overwhelmingly affirmed by vote of the bishops present.

And, even if Constantine did destroy "heretical" writings (which I suppose is proven by the fact that we don't have them ), it would not in any way affect our discussion of why we don't have the NT autographs; that was centuries prior, and it seems highly likely that they had disappeared well before Constantine's time. Maybe I'm thick, but I don't see what point you are trying to make with this scenario.

10

Article on disfellowshipping by Mrs C.T.R in 1887 Watchtower

by Aussie Oz in

cruising through the 1887 wt i came accross this that i found of interest that as far back as 1887 the wt was sanctioning the act of disfellowshipping.

whether it included the practice of full blown shunning at that time is not eveident in the pages i have looked through yet.. watchtower 1887 page 954 ''discipline in the church''.

such is part of the painful duty of the present hour.

NeonMadman

Despite what the JW's would have you believe, disfellowshipping is not unheard of among the churches of Christendom. Of course, traditional churches don't have elders who act as spiritual policemen, nosing into people's lives for the purpose of finding any excuse to exercise their judicial power, and they don't indulge in the extreme shunning practiced by the JW's. But many churches do address serious issues of sin within their congregations, especially those that become known publicly. A sinner who refuses to repent after the following of the Matthew 18 procedure may well be expelled from the church (usually by a vote of the whole congregation), and it is up to individual members to determine to what extent such action will affect their personal relationships with the individual. The expelled person is not seen as irretrievably lost, but is usually admonished to repent and to return. The expelled person is nearly always denied Communion ("not even eating with such a man") - hence the term "excommunication."

Russell picked up on this practice and advocated it in his writing - it was very unlike the oppressive system practiced among the JW's today. I believe that the Bible Student groups that still exist also follow this model.

31

Natick, MA Assembly Hall

by Eiben Scrood in

jw
friends

i have a lot of memories of attending assemblies there for 30 years.

does anyone remember all the purple coloring?

remember that guy who used to wave a stick like he was conducting an orchestra except there was no orchestra, only a guy playing the piano and the audience singing?.

NeonMadman

I never got to the Monroe, NY assembly hall, though, ironically, I now live about a half hour from it. I no longer go to assemblies, however...

57

Let us discuss HOLY

by Terry in

ever searched for nostalgia items, collectibles or antiques on ebay, craig's list or some such venue?.

a lot of junk has become valuable with the passage of time.. yes, junk.. gradually it seemed to gather a mysterious inflation of valuation.. the items themselves receive wear and tear but they way they are regarded takes on an almost awesome patina of wonderful.. .

i'll give you an example.. i loved to play cowboy when i was a young kid; especially gunslinger/fast draw style.. my favorite guns were made by stallion.

NeonMadman

Gee, I wish I could totally non-biased like...um...you!

I never said I was unbiased. I'm pointing out that your conclusions are driven by an agenda.

The Supernatural is by definition beyond NATURE. Nature can be examined, tested, measured, quanitfied, explored. All of which gives us the fundamental operation of "what exists".

That sounds a lot like a faith-based presupposition to me. Or can you offer scientific proof that nothing exists beyond that which "can be examined, tested, measured, quanitfied, explored" ( and, of course, your unspoken qualification is that such testing, measuring, etc. must be accomplished by natural, physical means)?

The Supernatural, on the other hand, cannot be examined, tested, measured, quantified, explored. It is subject only to imaginary claims. You, being a Mystic hide behind what cannot be proved. This makes whatever arbitrary, capricious or whimsical idea you harbor beyond reach in intelligent conversation, beyond logic and beyond comprehension except to yourself.

Are you listening to yourself? You have set an arbitratry, essentially faith-based qualification as to what can or cannot exist, then you call ideas that differ from your own as "imaginary," "capricious," "whimsical" and "beyond reach in intelligent conversation." It's hard to fathom such arrogance.

And what's ironic, to drag this discussion kicking and screaming beak to the original topic, is that we are not even discussing the question of whether the supernatural really exists. No, we have been arguing about whether the books of the Bible were perceived as being sacred by those alive when they were written, an entirely separate question from whether the books were actually of a supernatural origin. Your original contention was that they were not perceived as sacred, and that therefore they were not preserved by those who received them. For some reason they were copied and circulated widely, and, of course, they contain specific claims to have a supernatural origin, but we are to believe that those who did all this copying and circulating didn't really believe those claims, but thought the books had some good stuff in them so they made copies. But apparently the good stuff was not sufficient to warrant preserving the originals after making all those copies. You have completely ignored the periods of intense persecution that I have repeatedly cited as the likely reason that none of the autographs have come down to us.

You know, one doesn't have to be a believer or a mystic to agree with my conclusions on this topic. I think that the most hardened atheist/naturalist who thought about the matter for five minutes would quickly conclude that the persecution scenario is a far more likely reason for the disappearance of the autographs than the reason you have proposed in your original post under this topic. Since you have made a positive historical claim, however, and given the preeminence you have assigned to physical evidence in your subsequent comments, I assume you can prove scientifically that your scenario is the correct one? Because without better evidence that you are offering, it sounds a bit more like wild, illogical, agenda-driven speculation to me.

You posted the following list yourself.

Did I? Certainly not on this thread, but I've posted lots of stuff on this board over the years. Can you provide a link? I don't remember it...not that I disagree with it.

Science consists of statements which are framed so that they can be FALSIFIED if wrong. In other words, if there is no way to prove something wrong---it cannot be Science.

I agree. Nobody is contending that the supernatural, if it exists, falls under the purview of science. The unspoken, faith-based assumption inherent in this statement, however - the statement that cannot be falsified, if you will - is that nothing exists that can't be quantified by science.

17

Anybody interested in attending a professionally-arranged conference addressing cultic group issues to be held in Nashville, TN?

by AndersonsInfo in

jw
friends

one of the paramount non-profit anti-cult organizations headquartered in the us would like to arrange a two-day conference to be held in nashville, tn in the fall of 2011. this organization sponsors conferences, workshops, local meetings and special lectures, seminars, and other events all over the world for those interested in this subject.

at a nashville conference there will be opportunity to network with and listen to experts in the field and with people adversely affected by cultic experiences.. recently, when examining their records, this organization found that former jehovahs witnesses made up the bulk of those attending their anti-cult workshops which definitely indicates that many former witnesses are seeking help to overcome the damage from cult abuse.

however, the nashville conference will not be solely for former jehovahs witnesses, but will encourage attendance by anyone interested in hearing the experts address psychological manipulation and abuse in cultic groups, alternative movements, and other environments.

NeonMadman

I'd be interested in attending as long as the dates don't conflict with the Witnesses Now for Jesus conference in PA (usually the third weekend in October).

31

Natick, MA Assembly Hall

by Eiben Scrood in

jw
friends

i have a lot of memories of attending assemblies there for 30 years.

does anyone remember all the purple coloring?

remember that guy who used to wave a stick like he was conducting an orchestra except there was no orchestra, only a guy playing the piano and the audience singing?.

NeonMadman

Went there for the better part of 30 years. I was on the program twice, I believe, once with a group of other young JW's playing musical instruments. I was the oldest in the group at 25, the rest were all teens, iirc. However, I was still single, so even at 25 that made me a "youth." I played guitar, a girl played accordion, and we had a couple of other instruments and we all sang. The song, of course, was "Serve Jehovah During Youth." It was one of the more fun times I had as a JW.

Lots of memories in that place, both good and bad. I also remember one time sitting in the parking lot during lunch break with a couple of my friends listening to a tape of Bill Cetnar explaining why JW's were false prophets.

57

Let us discuss HOLY

by Terry in

ever searched for nostalgia items, collectibles or antiques on ebay, craig's list or some such venue?.

a lot of junk has become valuable with the passage of time.. yes, junk.. gradually it seemed to gather a mysterious inflation of valuation.. the items themselves receive wear and tear but they way they are regarded takes on an almost awesome patina of wonderful.. .

i'll give you an example.. i loved to play cowboy when i was a young kid; especially gunslinger/fast draw style.. my favorite guns were made by stallion.

NeonMadman

I'm sure you know that your analogy is a bad one because SECULAR history differs 180 degrees from SACRED. The stakes and claims are much higher.
The more outrageous a claim (miracles, angels, demons, resurrection, etc.) the greater the burden of proof. ARE YOU IGNORING THAT?

You demonstrate your bias even in the way you phrase your premise. Claims of the supernatural are "outrageous"? According to whom?

In fact, I suspect there is no threshhold at which there could be sufficient evidence to satisfy you as to the authenticity of the NT. Your mind has already been made up; no need to bother you with facts. You are proceeding from a completely naturalistic set of assumptions - that the supernatural does not and cannot exist. That being the case, it doesn't matter how much evidence there is for a supernatural occurrence; you will automatically dismiss that evidence as insufficient. I'd be willing to bet that if Jesus Christ appeared in your living room and sat down with you to explain things, you would convince yourself within a few minutes of His departure that you had been hallucinating.

A good example of this bias is your original premise that the ONLY REASON possible that we do not have the autographs of the NT is that they were regarded as of no particular value and discarded by those who possessed them - a claim which you later modified when I pointed out that if they were seen of such low value as to be discarded, it hardly made sense that people would make and circulate copies of them. You completely ignored the suggestion that the autographs might have been lost due to centuries of persecution in which one of the objectives was to destroy every vestige of Christianity, including its scriptures. No, that apparently made no sense to you at all - you have already decided ad hoc what the correct scenario was.

For those of us who do not proceed from such a materialistic bias, however, the evidence for the authenticity of the NT is quite compelling - many times greater than for any other ancient document. Nobody questions whether the writings of Homer or Plato have reached us in substantially their original form, however the manuscript evidence for the NT is many times greater.

The Apostles did not have laptops, internet, newspapers, telephone, cellphones, skywriting or other technolog TO MONITOR WHAT OTHERS SAID, DID OR WROTE for corrective purposes!!
These stories circulated everywhere that people traveled. Strangers went from town to town doing business and told jokes, wild fish tales, news and the Latest Jesus story!

It's true that they didn't have the Internet back then. Many did, however, have copies of the Gospels early on, since they were quickly circulated far and wide. And surely that circulation would have begun in the areas where the apostles lived and wrote. There would have been many in the early church who were personally familiar with the events and could have corrected any embellishments, and there was certainly great motivation to do so among the Jews, the Romans, and other opposers of the new Christian religion. In other words, there were both motive and opportunity to debunk the accounts of Jesus' life and work if they were untrue, yet we don't find such refutations forthcoming in history. Much as you would like to reduce the Jesus story to a series of folk tales, the manuscript evidence indicates otherwise.

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