Posts by NeonMadman

40

The fundamental flaw with the WTBTS as "God's Organization"?

by Essan in

there are countless issues that people have with the society and which together have led to many people realizing that it is not what it claims and pretends to be.

these include things like the secret un affiliation, contradictory and hypocritical stances, (malawi vs mexico vs un/ngo), the ever changing blood policy and ever changing doctrine, failed predictions for armageddon etc, etc, etc.. but what is the consensus about what the fundamental flaw is?.

what i mean is, many jw's hear about these various issues and manage to make endless excuses for them, even though this involves gross hypocrisy and excusing the society for things they would never excuse in other religions and which the society itself has ruthless condemned other religions for over almost 100 years.

NeonMadman

I agree that the central issue one must address with a JW is that of the F&DS being God's spokesman. There's something about JW psychology (or the indoctrination), though, that tends to divert them from that central issue. I've argued with a number of JW's about this, and even the ones who seem to agree that the organization is not what it claims to be somehow tend to get diverted to non-essential issues. "Well, what do you think about the paradise earth?" "Do you think it's OK to take a blood transfusion?" "Do you believe in hell now?" Trying to keep them on track is like trying to nail Jell-O to a wall, but it's essential that we somehow do so.

57

Let us discuss HOLY

by Terry in

ever searched for nostalgia items, collectibles or antiques on ebay, craig's list or some such venue?.

a lot of junk has become valuable with the passage of time.. yes, junk.. gradually it seemed to gather a mysterious inflation of valuation.. the items themselves receive wear and tear but they way they are regarded takes on an almost awesome patina of wonderful.. .

i'll give you an example.. i loved to play cowboy when i was a young kid; especially gunslinger/fast draw style.. my favorite guns were made by stallion.

NeonMadman

You ASSUME this to be true.
How do you verify it?
Your turn to cite sources.

Unfortunately, I'm away on job training all this week and don't have access to my library, so citing sources isn't within my current ability. However, it seems a reasonable enough prima facie conclusion: the canonical Scriptures support the deity of Christ; the Nicean council found in favor of the deity of Christ; the ante-Nicene fathers cited the canonical Scriptures extensively. Am I reaching too far to see a relationship there? If you think I am wrong about that, from where do you think the Nicene bishops got their understanding of the deity of Christ?

Now, why take the view that Catholic Dogma was the TRUE view and the only documents destroyed were actual heretical writings/
HOW DO YOU KNOW?

Correct me if I misunderstand you here, but it seems to me that you are asserting that there were some hypothetical writings that have not survived that you are now appealing to in an effort to bolster your original claim regarding how the biblical documents were viewed by their original readers? Even if it were true that such documents existed (and I have no doubt that there may have been SOME "heretical" documents that failed to survive, even as there were very likely SOME "orthodox" documents that failed to survive), it would do little for your case, since the original readers of the NT documents lived centuries by Constantine. Even if your scenario were correct, the documents would certainly have been regarded as "holy" before the time of Constantine. So that offers nothing to explain why the autographs did not survive.

In any event, I think it's quite a stretch to hypothesize documents for whose existence we have no evidence and then use them to bolster your theory, particularly from a guy who is so demanding of evidence for positive claims. If Constantine did undertake to destroy all "heretical" documents, he was wildly unsuccessful, since many, many such documents have survived to come down to us. Read The Other Bible or Ehrman's Lost Scripture and you'll see many such works. I don't think the question is how I know that there were not lost documents, but how you know that there were, and more particularly, what the content of those alleged documents might have been.

Do you know anything about the Roman government as to efficacy of enforcement historically?
Have you read Gibbon?

No, I haven't read Gibbon, though I have no doubt that the Roman enforcers were quite capable. However, we are talking about absolute eradication of work throughout the Empire. That is a pretty tall order for any autocracy. It requires that every single copy of an objectionable work be located and destroyed. All it takes is one person hiding his scrolls in a cave somewhere, and we have the Dead Sea Scrolls or the Nag Hammadi texts to show later generations what was written. The same sort of logic comes into play when one contends that the NT was "changed by the church" - an impossible task, given the early and wide distribution of manuscript copies. Any "change" would have stood out like a sore thumb under the light of textual criticism.

So you are dodging my question?
How is it you can demand from me various responses with impunity while picking and choosing what you will address?

Dodging your question would imply ignoring it or engaging in verbal "dancing" to give a non-answer. I directly indicated that I didn't want to have that discussion. That's not dodging. The questions I have asked you relate directly to the topic at hand. This is not a naturalistic/supernaturalistic or an atheistic/theistic discussion. Your original point, to which I have repeatedly tried to redirect the discussion, related to how the original biblical writings were regarded by their contemporaries. That has nothing to do with whether they actually were of supernatural origin, only whether people regarded them as such. Therefore, for us to start wrangling about whether the supernatural actually exists would be a "rabbit trail" - a diversion that is irrelevant to the subject at hand.

And, bluntly, you have shown such a mocking and dismissive attitude toward belief in the supernatural that I have no desire to give you an excuse for more ad hominems. My intent has been to show that your unspoken presupposition - that nothing exists that is outside the scope and purview of science - is itself unprovable and therefore no less faith-based than any supernaturalistic position I might take.

57

Let us discuss HOLY

by Terry in

ever searched for nostalgia items, collectibles or antiques on ebay, craig's list or some such venue?.

a lot of junk has become valuable with the passage of time.. yes, junk.. gradually it seemed to gather a mysterious inflation of valuation.. the items themselves receive wear and tear but they way they are regarded takes on an almost awesome patina of wonderful.. .

i'll give you an example.. i loved to play cowboy when i was a young kid; especially gunslinger/fast draw style.. my favorite guns were made by stallion.

NeonMadman

I'm saying the ACTUAL canonical writings (which we don't have) were CONSIDERED heretical! That is why we don't have them.

You're saying that the actual canonical writings were considered heretical by Constantine and destroyed? Why? The bishops at Nicea derived their understanding of the deity of Christ from the canonical writings. The canonical writings were in harmony with the outcome of Nicea. And do you really believe that the autographs of the NT survived until the time of Constantine only to be destroyed by him as heretical, when in fact he agreed with them? And that he somehow expected those writings to vanish because he destroyed the autographs, even though by that time there were thousands of copies from one end of the Empire to the other?

Or are you trying to assert that there were some other, unknown "canonical" writings that have disappeared completely? If so, why should we believe that they ever existed?

Either way, your scenario implies that at some point there was some authority who was capable of reaching from one end of the Roman Empire to the other and controlling what manuscripts were in existence. That was never the case. Someone could always squirrel away a few manuscripts that could show up later on; it's nearly impossible to eradicate widely circulated writings from history. The Nag Hammadi manuscripts would certainly have been regarded as heretical, but they have nonetheless come down to us.

By the way, if we had no NT manuscripts whatsoever, it would still be possible to reassemble all but 11 verses of the NT from the writings of the ante-Nicene fathers. Did Constantine destroy all of their writings, too?

It isn't a matter of it going over my head; it's that you are making progressively less sense in an effort not to admit that your original premise does not stand up to examination.

And, by the way...do you believe in the Supernatural? If so, why?

Given your attitude and level of argumentation regarding your original premise, I think I'll avoid that particular rabbit trail.

57

Let us discuss HOLY

by Terry in

ever searched for nostalgia items, collectibles or antiques on ebay, craig's list or some such venue?.

a lot of junk has become valuable with the passage of time.. yes, junk.. gradually it seemed to gather a mysterious inflation of valuation.. the items themselves receive wear and tear but they way they are regarded takes on an almost awesome patina of wonderful.. .

i'll give you an example.. i loved to play cowboy when i was a young kid; especially gunslinger/fast draw style.. my favorite guns were made by stallion.

NeonMadman

Now you're being silly! Proving a negative? Where are we, High School?

I didn't ask you to prove a negative. You are making a positive claim that nothing exists apart from what can be verified by scientific means. It seems to me that you need to offer evidence for that claim. Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence, especially when the thing being considered is, by definition, outside the scope of physical evidence.

Now you're becoming hysterical. (At least I had to laugh.)

I'm hardly hysterical. Though it is certainly easier for you to call me names than to admit that your presuppositions are no less faith-based than my own.

Set some standards for yourself, for crying out loud! How about this for starters: "I won't argue the existence of things which have no existence."

How about this standard for you: "I won't claim non-existence for things for which I have no scientific evidence, especially if those things are, by definition, beyond the scope of science." There was a time when protons were beyond the scope of science, and the human mind pretty much still is. That doesn't mean those things don't exist.

Are you saying it is unreasonable to think original autograph manuscripts of any Apostolic writings which a "heretic" was using to support non-Trinitarian teachings WOULD ACTUALLY SURVIVE??

So you can envision such a scenario for "heretical" writings being destroyed, but completely dismiss it for the canonical writings? Perhaps the autographs of the heretical writings didn't survive because they were not seen as valuable by those who received them? Interestingly, the writings of Arius are still extant, despite their "heretical" nature.

Beside that, your scenario smacks more of Dan Brown and the Da Vinci Code than it does of actual history. The council of Nicea had absolutely nothing to do with the organizing of the Biblical canon - that was established prior to the time of Constantine. It also did not affirm the Trinity, only the deity and eternality of Christ, which (contrary to Dan Brown) was overwhelmingly affirmed by vote of the bishops present.

And, even if Constantine did destroy "heretical" writings (which I suppose is proven by the fact that we don't have them ), it would not in any way affect our discussion of why we don't have the NT autographs; that was centuries prior, and it seems highly likely that they had disappeared well before Constantine's time. Maybe I'm thick, but I don't see what point you are trying to make with this scenario.

10

Article on disfellowshipping by Mrs C.T.R in 1887 Watchtower

by Aussie Oz in

cruising through the 1887 wt i came accross this that i found of interest that as far back as 1887 the wt was sanctioning the act of disfellowshipping.

whether it included the practice of full blown shunning at that time is not eveident in the pages i have looked through yet.. watchtower 1887 page 954 ''discipline in the church''.

such is part of the painful duty of the present hour.

NeonMadman

Despite what the JW's would have you believe, disfellowshipping is not unheard of among the churches of Christendom. Of course, traditional churches don't have elders who act as spiritual policemen, nosing into people's lives for the purpose of finding any excuse to exercise their judicial power, and they don't indulge in the extreme shunning practiced by the JW's. But many churches do address serious issues of sin within their congregations, especially those that become known publicly. A sinner who refuses to repent after the following of the Matthew 18 procedure may well be expelled from the church (usually by a vote of the whole congregation), and it is up to individual members to determine to what extent such action will affect their personal relationships with the individual. The expelled person is not seen as irretrievably lost, but is usually admonished to repent and to return. The expelled person is nearly always denied Communion ("not even eating with such a man") - hence the term "excommunication."

Russell picked up on this practice and advocated it in his writing - it was very unlike the oppressive system practiced among the JW's today. I believe that the Bible Student groups that still exist also follow this model.

31

Natick, MA Assembly Hall

by Eiben Scrood in

jw
friends

i have a lot of memories of attending assemblies there for 30 years.

does anyone remember all the purple coloring?

remember that guy who used to wave a stick like he was conducting an orchestra except there was no orchestra, only a guy playing the piano and the audience singing?.

NeonMadman

I never got to the Monroe, NY assembly hall, though, ironically, I now live about a half hour from it. I no longer go to assemblies, however...

57

Let us discuss HOLY

by Terry in

ever searched for nostalgia items, collectibles or antiques on ebay, craig's list or some such venue?.

a lot of junk has become valuable with the passage of time.. yes, junk.. gradually it seemed to gather a mysterious inflation of valuation.. the items themselves receive wear and tear but they way they are regarded takes on an almost awesome patina of wonderful.. .

i'll give you an example.. i loved to play cowboy when i was a young kid; especially gunslinger/fast draw style.. my favorite guns were made by stallion.

NeonMadman

Gee, I wish I could totally non-biased like...um...you!

I never said I was unbiased. I'm pointing out that your conclusions are driven by an agenda.

The Supernatural is by definition beyond NATURE. Nature can be examined, tested, measured, quanitfied, explored. All of which gives us the fundamental operation of "what exists".

That sounds a lot like a faith-based presupposition to me. Or can you offer scientific proof that nothing exists beyond that which "can be examined, tested, measured, quanitfied, explored" ( and, of course, your unspoken qualification is that such testing, measuring, etc. must be accomplished by natural, physical means)?

The Supernatural, on the other hand, cannot be examined, tested, measured, quantified, explored. It is subject only to imaginary claims. You, being a Mystic hide behind what cannot be proved. This makes whatever arbitrary, capricious or whimsical idea you harbor beyond reach in intelligent conversation, beyond logic and beyond comprehension except to yourself.

Are you listening to yourself? You have set an arbitratry, essentially faith-based qualification as to what can or cannot exist, then you call ideas that differ from your own as "imaginary," "capricious," "whimsical" and "beyond reach in intelligent conversation." It's hard to fathom such arrogance.

And what's ironic, to drag this discussion kicking and screaming beak to the original topic, is that we are not even discussing the question of whether the supernatural really exists. No, we have been arguing about whether the books of the Bible were perceived as being sacred by those alive when they were written, an entirely separate question from whether the books were actually of a supernatural origin. Your original contention was that they were not perceived as sacred, and that therefore they were not preserved by those who received them. For some reason they were copied and circulated widely, and, of course, they contain specific claims to have a supernatural origin, but we are to believe that those who did all this copying and circulating didn't really believe those claims, but thought the books had some good stuff in them so they made copies. But apparently the good stuff was not sufficient to warrant preserving the originals after making all those copies. You have completely ignored the periods of intense persecution that I have repeatedly cited as the likely reason that none of the autographs have come down to us.

You know, one doesn't have to be a believer or a mystic to agree with my conclusions on this topic. I think that the most hardened atheist/naturalist who thought about the matter for five minutes would quickly conclude that the persecution scenario is a far more likely reason for the disappearance of the autographs than the reason you have proposed in your original post under this topic. Since you have made a positive historical claim, however, and given the preeminence you have assigned to physical evidence in your subsequent comments, I assume you can prove scientifically that your scenario is the correct one? Because without better evidence that you are offering, it sounds a bit more like wild, illogical, agenda-driven speculation to me.

You posted the following list yourself.

Did I? Certainly not on this thread, but I've posted lots of stuff on this board over the years. Can you provide a link? I don't remember it...not that I disagree with it.

Science consists of statements which are framed so that they can be FALSIFIED if wrong. In other words, if there is no way to prove something wrong---it cannot be Science.

I agree. Nobody is contending that the supernatural, if it exists, falls under the purview of science. The unspoken, faith-based assumption inherent in this statement, however - the statement that cannot be falsified, if you will - is that nothing exists that can't be quantified by science.

17

Anybody interested in attending a professionally-arranged conference addressing cultic group issues to be held in Nashville, TN?

by AndersonsInfo in

jw
friends

one of the paramount non-profit anti-cult organizations headquartered in the us would like to arrange a two-day conference to be held in nashville, tn in the fall of 2011. this organization sponsors conferences, workshops, local meetings and special lectures, seminars, and other events all over the world for those interested in this subject.

at a nashville conference there will be opportunity to network with and listen to experts in the field and with people adversely affected by cultic experiences.. recently, when examining their records, this organization found that former jehovahs witnesses made up the bulk of those attending their anti-cult workshops which definitely indicates that many former witnesses are seeking help to overcome the damage from cult abuse.

however, the nashville conference will not be solely for former jehovahs witnesses, but will encourage attendance by anyone interested in hearing the experts address psychological manipulation and abuse in cultic groups, alternative movements, and other environments.

NeonMadman

I'd be interested in attending as long as the dates don't conflict with the Witnesses Now for Jesus conference in PA (usually the third weekend in October).

31

Natick, MA Assembly Hall

by Eiben Scrood in

jw
friends

i have a lot of memories of attending assemblies there for 30 years.

does anyone remember all the purple coloring?

remember that guy who used to wave a stick like he was conducting an orchestra except there was no orchestra, only a guy playing the piano and the audience singing?.

NeonMadman

Went there for the better part of 30 years. I was on the program twice, I believe, once with a group of other young JW's playing musical instruments. I was the oldest in the group at 25, the rest were all teens, iirc. However, I was still single, so even at 25 that made me a "youth." I played guitar, a girl played accordion, and we had a couple of other instruments and we all sang. The song, of course, was "Serve Jehovah During Youth." It was one of the more fun times I had as a JW.

Lots of memories in that place, both good and bad. I also remember one time sitting in the parking lot during lunch break with a couple of my friends listening to a tape of Bill Cetnar explaining why JW's were false prophets.

57

Let us discuss HOLY

by Terry in

ever searched for nostalgia items, collectibles or antiques on ebay, craig's list or some such venue?.

a lot of junk has become valuable with the passage of time.. yes, junk.. gradually it seemed to gather a mysterious inflation of valuation.. the items themselves receive wear and tear but they way they are regarded takes on an almost awesome patina of wonderful.. .

i'll give you an example.. i loved to play cowboy when i was a young kid; especially gunslinger/fast draw style.. my favorite guns were made by stallion.

NeonMadman

I'm sure you know that your analogy is a bad one because SECULAR history differs 180 degrees from SACRED. The stakes and claims are much higher.
The more outrageous a claim (miracles, angels, demons, resurrection, etc.) the greater the burden of proof. ARE YOU IGNORING THAT?

You demonstrate your bias even in the way you phrase your premise. Claims of the supernatural are "outrageous"? According to whom?

In fact, I suspect there is no threshhold at which there could be sufficient evidence to satisfy you as to the authenticity of the NT. Your mind has already been made up; no need to bother you with facts. You are proceeding from a completely naturalistic set of assumptions - that the supernatural does not and cannot exist. That being the case, it doesn't matter how much evidence there is for a supernatural occurrence; you will automatically dismiss that evidence as insufficient. I'd be willing to bet that if Jesus Christ appeared in your living room and sat down with you to explain things, you would convince yourself within a few minutes of His departure that you had been hallucinating.

A good example of this bias is your original premise that the ONLY REASON possible that we do not have the autographs of the NT is that they were regarded as of no particular value and discarded by those who possessed them - a claim which you later modified when I pointed out that if they were seen of such low value as to be discarded, it hardly made sense that people would make and circulate copies of them. You completely ignored the suggestion that the autographs might have been lost due to centuries of persecution in which one of the objectives was to destroy every vestige of Christianity, including its scriptures. No, that apparently made no sense to you at all - you have already decided ad hoc what the correct scenario was.

For those of us who do not proceed from such a materialistic bias, however, the evidence for the authenticity of the NT is quite compelling - many times greater than for any other ancient document. Nobody questions whether the writings of Homer or Plato have reached us in substantially their original form, however the manuscript evidence for the NT is many times greater.

The Apostles did not have laptops, internet, newspapers, telephone, cellphones, skywriting or other technolog TO MONITOR WHAT OTHERS SAID, DID OR WROTE for corrective purposes!!
These stories circulated everywhere that people traveled. Strangers went from town to town doing business and told jokes, wild fish tales, news and the Latest Jesus story!

It's true that they didn't have the Internet back then. Many did, however, have copies of the Gospels early on, since they were quickly circulated far and wide. And surely that circulation would have begun in the areas where the apostles lived and wrote. There would have been many in the early church who were personally familiar with the events and could have corrected any embellishments, and there was certainly great motivation to do so among the Jews, the Romans, and other opposers of the new Christian religion. In other words, there were both motive and opportunity to debunk the accounts of Jesus' life and work if they were untrue, yet we don't find such refutations forthcoming in history. Much as you would like to reduce the Jesus story to a series of folk tales, the manuscript evidence indicates otherwise.