Posts by NeonMadman

I appreciate the point you make, but whatever the motive and intention of taking house to house records I think is completely besides the point. That such practice is undertaken by ordinary people, especially the times that a householder is absent, I find particularly quite worrying, and believe that the British public too would share this grave concern, regardless.

First, let me say that anything that helps to bring down the Borg is OK with me. But my concern here is that you could spend a lot of time publicizing an issue that really wouldn't grab too much public interest, versus putting your efforts into something that might get a real reaction, like the pedophile issue, or blood, or even the UN thing.

Second, I know most of the posts here seem to be written from a British perspective, and I'm not especially familiar with laws and procedures in the UK, so what I say might have a particularly American slant to it.

But I think that any court, whether a literal one or the court of public opinion, would tend to weigh the JW's practice of recording "not-homes" against the fact that we all breach our own security in many ways on a daily basis. For example, my wife and I just bought a TV and DVD player at Circuit City. Not being very technically-oriented, I jumped at the sales dude's offer to come over and hook it up for us after work one night. It was a fairly expensive HDTV unit, and I assumed that the commission he earned on it would compensate for his time. (We also offered to pay him for his trouble, but he wouldn't take anything) It occurred to us, however, that he could do this just to get into people's homes to case them for future burglaries, if he were that sort of person. So we knowingly breached our security in that sense by letting a stranger into our home. Again today, we did the same thing; the broiler in our gas range went, and we allowed a repairman to come into our home to fix it. We buy things constantly over the internet using credit cards. We use credit cards at stores and restaurants, too - leaving copies of our credit card information in the hands of poorly paid clerks.

Any one of these things that I mention above could come back to bite us on the butt, if the information fell into the wrong hands. But that's a big "if". All of us assume in our daily lives that information will be handled properly and used for the purpose for which it's gathered. If we are paranoid to the point of guarding against every possible abuse, we start to look like the Mel Gibson character in the movie, Conspiracy Theory. Most of us take reasonable precautions beforehand, and take action only after the fact, if some abuse does occur. And in the USA, at least, there are laws as to how much money a credit card holder is liable for under such circumstances.

Now, you could argue that in all of the above cases, I am initiating the transaction, where in the case of the JW's, they are approaching homes unbidden, then keeping "records" as to who is not home. But the question is, how do you prevent this, assuming it is the big problem you think it is? Would you make laws preventing strangers from calling at the homes of others without an invitation? If someone does call at the house of a stranger, would you prohibit them from writing a "note to self" reminding them of what happened when they got there? Or are you saying that all such private notes ought to be matters of public record? I think those things would be an unreasonable restriction of freedom, and would cause more problems than they solve. And, bear in mind what I have pointed out before, the "records" are not being accumulated; the sole purpose of noting who is not home is to be able to find the person home at a later time. Once that is accomplished, the note is discarded.

the kicker to this area is that, because of the policies of the WTS on child-abuse, such information, even if only temporarily kept, may well fall into the hands of a paedophile.

As might any other record kept in any other situation. The vast majority of Jehovah's Witnesses are not pedophiles. The fact that a small minority might be is not a reason to abridge the freedom of the majority. Again, I'm not defending the Borg or its policies here, and I am as opposed as anyone to the policies it has adopted with regard to pedophiles in the congregations. But if you're going to spend your time trying to arouse a public outcry, I think you'd get much more mileage attacking the pedophile issue directly, rather than this business about the house-to-house records.

In fact, many publishers do keep their own territory cards for extended periods of time, and the more zealous of these build up considerable knowledge of the territory and those who live in it. This information is often recorded and kept with the territory, and is not destroyed when the card is handed back.

Well, sure. The pioneers, for example, get to know every house in the territory after a while, but the only way to prevent that from happening would be to prohibit the door-to-door work entirely, and I don't think that's a good idea, because too many other freedoms would be affected. Even salesmen for worldly businesses get to know their territories thoroughly. If a few have criminal intent, then through the law, we need to deal with their criminal acts, not take away the freedoms of all those who may be in similar circumstances to prevent a small minority from abusing the situation.

In my years as a JW, records were never kept more than one cycle of the territory. Usually, territories were not returned until all householders had been contacted, or sometimes, a small number who had been missed might be noted on the House-to-House record for the next person to concentrate upon. But it never went beyond that. If those householders were still not contacted, the slip was discarded before the territory went out again. Even the carrying of the slip to the next assigned person as I have described was rare.

Anyway, do what you think is best, but I think there are bigger fish you could be frying than this one.

Tom
"The truth was obscure, too profound and too pure; to live it you had to explode." ---Bob Dylan

5

If Adam Had Not Sinned........

by stevieb1 in

one of the ways the wt tries to get you into believing you are not going to heaven even if you d not have faith in christ is by saying that if adam had not sinned we would all be living in a paradise earth.

the publication "reasoning from the scriptures" states on page 162: "it wa not jehovah's original purpose for man someday to die.......death was to be punishment for disobedience, not the doorway to a better life in heaven.

obedience would have ben rewarded by continued life, eternal life, in the paradise that god had given to man.

NeonMadman

I think the entire question is moot. Unlike the weak god of Jehovah's Witnesses, whose sight is limited and who depends on angels to keep him informed, the God of the Bible knows the end from the beginning, and was well aware in advance that Adam and Eve would sin, what would be the consequences to them and to their offspring, and what He would do to resolve the problem.

Tom
"The truth was obscure, too profound and too pure; to live it you had to explode." ---Bob Dylan

17

Keeping House to House Records??? Joe Public

by Celtic in

jw
friends

you know when we used to go from house to house and we kept records etc of not at homes and what have you?

surely the general public would be concerned to know that so much personal information is taken and kept by the jw congregations.

anyone else with any views on this?

NeonMadman

Aren't we getting a bit panicky here? I mean, the reality of the fact is that house-to-house records are not turned in to the congregation or logged in any central record. No one can generate a list of when certain householders are or are not at home, except the individual JW who is responsible for working the territory at that particular time. H-to-H records are kept only for the purpose of completing the territory assignment, and then discarded. It's not like someone is using them to compile a huge database. Nothing short of an ongoing Bible study is even reported to the congregation; the H-to-H records are personal notes only, for the sole purpose of completing a personal assignment. And there's nothing illegal or even questionable about an individual keeping a record of work that he himself is doing. The fact that the Society provides a form to use in doing this doesn't change anything in that regard; the notes would be just as effective if kept on a small memo pad, but people wouldn't get all "up in arms" about it.

Tom
"The truth was obscure, too profound and too pure; to live it you had to explode." ---Bob Dylan

4

Still can't do alternative service?

by ozziepost in

this news report is showing on the wts site:.

yerevan, armenia"i love my homeland and am prepared to do any beneficial work for it that is not connected with the military.

" these words were spoken yesterday by 21-year old henrik hovnikyan, a young jehovahs witness being tried a second time for his refusal to serve in the military.

NeonMadman

Just a guess here, but maybe Armenia doesn't offer alternative service as an option for avoiding military service?

Tom
"The truth was obscure, too profound and too pure; to live it you had to explode." ---Bob Dylan

22

McDonalds Prohibited?

by DakotaRed in

jw
friends

given how the org went after tobacco in the late sixties, resulting in it's total prohibition in the early seventies, based on the health communities claims of how bad it was destroying the body (a claim not disputed by me) and how they made it a disfellowshipping offense to smoke, chew or otherwise use tobacco, i wonder if they will now ban eating at mcdonalds?.

there is a group out there of health professionals (or claimed) that wish to heavily tax mcdonalds and other so called junk food places.

the taxes would be used to treat all the millions of people who are afflicted with the dreaded disease of obesity and to combat the rising costs of treating these poor misguided individuals that have been led astray, thinking they were getting healthy food at the loacl greasy pits.. will the elders start smelling everyone's breath upon entry to the kingdom halls for tell tale signs of mustard and pickles?

NeonMadman

Thanks for explaining! It sounds so goofy. Blood contains lecithin, so you couldn't eat lecithin. But blood contains iron, does that mean no iron-fortified cereals for breakfast? Hooray, no Bran Flakes, but bring on the Count Chocula with marshmallows! (Or is Count Chocula considered to be occult cereal?)

Without actually going to look it up, I think what you said is pretty close to the Society's reasoning when it cleared up the "lecithin question". The reasoning regarding iron, I mean.

But, yes, I have known JW's who refused to let their kids eat Count Chocula...

Tom
"The truth was obscure, too profound and too pure; to live it you had to explode." ---Bob Dylan

10

APOSTATE NOT SHUNNED - HUH?

by Trotafox in

jw
friends

well, i certainly am confused!

my jw neighbor just waved "hi" to me from her driveway so i went ahead and bit.

i hollered "my washer just broke down" (i was carrying a load to my other neighbors washer).

NeonMadman

Or maybe she personally has begun to see through the Watchtower's crap. That would be a good thing. Maybe you should try to have a conversation with her; she might need someone like you to talk to in order to solidify her doubts and make a break from the Borg.

Tom
"The truth was obscure, too profound and too pure; to live it you had to explode." ---Bob Dylan

22

McDonalds Prohibited?

by DakotaRed in

jw
friends

given how the org went after tobacco in the late sixties, resulting in it's total prohibition in the early seventies, based on the health communities claims of how bad it was destroying the body (a claim not disputed by me) and how they made it a disfellowshipping offense to smoke, chew or otherwise use tobacco, i wonder if they will now ban eating at mcdonalds?.

there is a group out there of health professionals (or claimed) that wish to heavily tax mcdonalds and other so called junk food places.

the taxes would be used to treat all the millions of people who are afflicted with the dreaded disease of obesity and to combat the rising costs of treating these poor misguided individuals that have been led astray, thinking they were getting healthy food at the loacl greasy pits.. will the elders start smelling everyone's breath upon entry to the kingdom halls for tell tale signs of mustard and pickles?

NeonMadman

I remember an exJW telling me that there was a time when she wasn't allowed to eat certain candy bars that contained lecithin. Her mom read the labels. I have no idea why lecithin would have been forbidden.

The reason is that blood contains lecithin, and there was a rumor going around among the JW's for a while to the effect that lecithin in all food products that contained it came from blood. That's nonsense, of course, lecithin is available from other sources, and at much less cost than extracting it from blood!

Tom
"The truth was obscure, too profound and too pure; to live it you had to explode." ---Bob Dylan

3

Watchtower Farms - How Run?

by Celtic in

jw
friends

could someone please explain to me the principles upon which the wt farms are run?.

does the farm also rely upon subsidies and funding grants of any kind?

from the brothers running the farms, is there any interest in farm diversification and environmental modelling upon the site, how is this evaluated and how are their plans forwarded into action?.

NeonMadman

Bear in mind that there is also a huge printing operation at Watchtower Farms in Walkill; that's where they publish the magazines. So, even if the farming operation as such were phased out at some point, it's likely that the printing operation would continue there.

Tom
"The truth was obscure, too profound and too pure; to live it you had to explode." ---Bob Dylan

9

Watchtower-related illnesses plus USE OF HYPNOSIS!

by Focus in

jw
friends

now, i am not suggesting you should send this guy any $$ - just read the web page.... * http://www.energeticsolutions.com.au/jehovah_witness_watchtower.htm.

summary.

jehovah witnesses are controlled by six watchtower concepts.

NeonMadman

They want $25 Australian for the privilege of downloading their e-book? How much is that in American? Sounds like an awful lot for an e-book...

Tom
"The truth was obscure, too profound and too pure; to live it you had to explode." ---Bob Dylan