I thought listing candidates for the 24 elders would be presumptuous, to say the least. But perhaps I misunderstood. By the way, I posted you an article on the aging-thread to show that sperm also deteriorate with age.
Posts by Vidqun
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75The 24 Elders in Revelation are NOT the anointed......
by EndofMysteries intoday i just thought of this.
i had written a thread about the false teaching of the anointed being resurrected already.
anyway, the wt assumes the 24 elders in revelation are the 144,000, and the assumption is merely because both sit on thrones.
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75
The 24 Elders in Revelation are NOT the anointed......
by EndofMysteries intoday i just thought of this.
i had written a thread about the false teaching of the anointed being resurrected already.
anyway, the wt assumes the 24 elders in revelation are the 144,000, and the assumption is merely because both sit on thrones.
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Vidqun
*lost*, luckily we do not decide who is worthy. Let us not steep as low as the WT GB and elders to start judging. That would be Jesus' job. They are supposed to supply the domestics with food, and only food.
I was never any good at Maths, so I sit this round out.
Bobcat, here's an interesting reference to Is. 24:21-23, especially v. 23:
The two passages Ex. 24[:1, 9] and Nu. 11[:16, 24] exerted considerable influence on other parts of the Bible and on Jewish exegesis. In obvious dependence on Ex. 24:9 f. the late apc. in Is., depicting world judgment and the manifestation of the coming kingdom of Yahweh on Zion and in Jerusalem, closes with the words: “And before his elders is glory,” Is. 24:23. The passage is a first example of the way in which apocalyptic likes to base its eschatological visions on sacred texts, so that it is itself to a large extent exegesis. In relation to Is. 24:23, Rev. 4 follows the same pattern in its vision of the 24 elders before the throne of God, → 668, 9 ff. In Rabb. exegesis, too, Ex. 24 along with Is. 24 plays an important part, though now with the particular intention of bringing out the special honour of the elders both then and in the future world. Cf. Sifre Numeri. Nu . , 92 on 11:16: “Not (just) in one place and not (just) in two does God give honour to the elders. But in every place where you find ‘elders,’ God gives honour to the elders.”
Nu. 11:16 f ., 24 f. offers a model for the Sanhedrin and the number of its members, → 659, 18 ff. It also offers scriptural support for Rabb. ordination. The early Chr. church could also turn sometimes to this passage at the institution of presbyters.[1]
S. Nu. Sifre Numeri, Tannaitic Midrash on Numbers (Strack, Einl., 201), ed. H. G. Horovitz, 1917.
Rabb. Rabbis,
[1] . Vol. 6: Theological dictionary of the New Testament. 1964- (G. Kittel, G. W. Bromiley & G. Friedrich, Ed.) (electronic ed.) (p. 656). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.
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Brilliant Article On Aging
by metatron inhttp://www.anti-agingfirewalls.com/2013/04/19/autophagy-the-housekeeper-in-every-cell-that-fights-aging-2/.
the above relates to one my interests, fighting the aging process (i've seen it and decided not to participate).
the really cool thing is that it ties together nearly every successful anti-aging intervention into one biological process.
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Vidqun
*lost*, here's an interesting article on the deterioration of sperm with old age. The advice of the one that did the experiments. Bottom line: Do not delay having children. "There are consequences of delaying fatherhood."
National Geographic News: Men Have Biological Clocks Too, Sperm Study Says
In the study, Wyrobek, Eskenzai, and colleagues examined the genetic quality of sperm from 97 healthy, nonsmoking men between the ages of 22 and 80. The men were current and retired employees of the Livermore laboratory.
The study sample included at least 15 men from each ten-year period from 20 to 60 years of age and 25 men 60 to 80 years old.
In earlier research on the same sperm samples, the team found that sperm count, mobility, and the ability of sperm to move in a straight line declines with age. The new research shows that mobility has a high correlation with DNA fragmentation.
The new study also found that men face increased risk of fathering children with achondroplasia, a genetic mutation that causes a form of dwarfism.
The condition stunts bone growth; affected individuals have short arms and legs and grow to only about 4 feet (1.2 meters) tall.
As women grow older, they are more likely to give birth to a baby with Down syndrome. Not so for men, apparently.
However, the study found no general correlation among male age and chromosome changes that cause Down syndrome.
Even so, 4 of the 97 men were at increased risk for transmitting multiple genetic and chromosomal defects, according to the results. Age may have nothing to do with these subjects' condition, though; one was in his 20s and three were over 60.
Interestingly, Wyrobek added, the sperm in the Lawrence Livermore sample showed no increase with age in Apert syndrome, a disfiguring birth defect.
However, the likelihood of fathering a child with Apert increased with age in men from inner-city Baltimore, Maryland, tested by researchers at the Johns Hopkins Medical Center for a different study.
Wyrobek cautioned against reading too much into the Baltimore study group's results, since they were all from men who lived in the same area.
"There're other things going on besides age. … It could be socioeconomic, or diet, or ethnicity."
Further studies, he added, will examine the Apert syndrome factor in greater detail.
Don't Panic
Craig Niederberger is a urologist at the University of Illinois in Chicago. He said the research findings are interesting and warrant further study. But he cautioned that the technique used to test the DNA of sperm is new and controversial.
"Older men should not yet be concerned about fathering children. The evidence is still inconclusive," he said.
According to Niederberger, who is president of the Society for Male Reproduction and Urology, researchers need to examine the integrity of sperm DNA with other methods before sounding alarms about male infertility.
Nevertheless, he said, the finding that a genetic mutation that leads to dwarfism increases with age is cause for "some concern. We ought to pursue it."
Wyrobek said the research raises more questions than answers. But it suggests certain kinds of DNA damage and genetic defects go up with age.
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75
The 24 Elders in Revelation are NOT the anointed......
by EndofMysteries intoday i just thought of this.
i had written a thread about the false teaching of the anointed being resurrected already.
anyway, the wt assumes the 24 elders in revelation are the 144,000, and the assumption is merely because both sit on thrones.
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Vidqun
Bobcat, I think you're on the right track. I will not rule out that it could be resurrected humans, the information is somewhat scanty. But here's what TDNT has to say, along the lines of what you are suggesting. They seem to be God's council of elders. The fact that they do not participate in the judicial process in the book of Revelation doesn't mean much. It could be that we do not have all the information:
4. The 24 πρεσβ?τεροι in Revelation. Special problems are raised by the passages in Rev. in which, in the visions of the divine, 24 elders surround the throne of God in heaven along with the four beasts, 4:4, 10; 5:6, 8, 11, 14; 7:11; 11:16; 14:3; 19:4. 99 The thrones on which they sit (4:4; 11:16), the white robes and the crowns which adorn them (4:4), show that they are heavenly beings, and the title πρεσβ?τεροι suggests that they are God’s council of elders. Yet there is no mention of God sitting in council with them nor do they seem to discharge a judicial office, cf. 20:4. Their function is not the exercising of their own dominion; it is simply adoration of the majesty of Him who sits on the throne (4:10; 19:4) and of the exalted Lamb (5:8–10) → θρ?νος , III, 165, 21 ff. They sink to the ground, offer worship, and cast down their crowns before the throne of the eternal and omnipotent God (4:10) with songs of praise (4:11; 5:9 f.; 11:17 f.; 19:4 etc.). According to 5:8 they offer priestly ministry for the earthly community with harps and golden vials. Their divine service in heaven accompanies the events of redemption and judgment on earth, which the elders inaugurate and conclude with gesture and song.
There is no suggestion that these elders are redeemed and transfigured men. 100 They are plainly differentiated from the transfigured, 7 and 14. They are also distinguished from the angelic hosts (5:11; 7:11) which surround the throne, the four beasts and the 24 elders. But they are so only as a higher class of angels which is closer to the throne of God than the others and which is entrusted in a peculiar way with His secrets. “One of the elders” functions as angelus interpres (5:5; 7:13) and the seer addresses him by the title of majesty, κ?ριος , 7:14. See TDNT, vol. VI, p. 668.
99 Cf. Michl, who carefully surveys the history of interpretation.
100 The thesis of Michl, 91–114 that the elders are the righteous of the old covenant viewed as the heavenly presbyters of the Chr. people seems to me to be quite untenable.
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75
The 24 Elders in Revelation are NOT the anointed......
by EndofMysteries intoday i just thought of this.
i had written a thread about the false teaching of the anointed being resurrected already.
anyway, the wt assumes the 24 elders in revelation are the 144,000, and the assumption is merely because both sit on thrones.
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Vidqun
Haven't researched it yet, but can the 24 elders not be the leaders of the 144000. If I remember correctly, each division of Israel had a leader called an elder which had to report to Moses. So each elder would lead a division of 6000 (24 x 6000 = 144000). Interestingly, the tribes in Revelation are divided into 12000 each. So there would be two elders per tribe (Rev. 7). But then they would have to be separate from the 144000 as Bobcat indicates. They have crowns and sit on throwns. Certainly Jesus' apostle would be amongst them. Just a thought.
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What's in a name? - Israel wasn't for Yaweh !
by snare&racket inwho the el' is el' ?.
the original god of israel was el, not yahweh, as is evident in the patriarchal narratives: the name isra-el means el rules, not yahweh rules that would be isra-yahu.
(bellah, 2011, p. 287).
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Vidqun
Sorry mP, bad habit of mine. That was for Snare.
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What's in a name? - Israel wasn't for Yaweh !
by snare&racket inwho the el' is el' ?.
the original god of israel was el, not yahweh, as is evident in the patriarchal narratives: the name isra-el means el rules, not yahweh rules that would be isra-yahu.
(bellah, 2011, p. 287).
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Vidqun
Forgive me for going off topic for a moment. Remember our last discussion on cancer? I see Immunotherapy has emerged as a promising way to tackle cancer. In a recent paper, a scientist argued that "despite the current dogma that cancer is a genetic disease, it can also be viewed as an "immunologic disorder." In many ways the adaptive immune system is an ideal anti-cancer therapy if it can be trained to attack tumor cells that it would otherwise tolerate." Perhaps we should open the old thread again. In my mind this would be a much more effective and less intrusive way to fight cancer.
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What's in a name? - Israel wasn't for Yaweh !
by snare&racket inwho the el' is el' ?.
the original god of israel was el, not yahweh, as is evident in the patriarchal narratives: the name isra-el means el rules, not yahweh rules that would be isra-yahu.
(bellah, 2011, p. 287).
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Vidqun
Not sure what you're looking for, but here's how I see it. End Product (Hebrew-Aramaic Scriptures: Genesis - Malachi). This I view as important evidence. After reading through the individual books, you might wonder: Where did these come from? What can we learn of the authors? Under what conditions were they written? What were their purpose then? What are their purpose now?
Is this not how the secrets of DNA and RNA were unravelled (Watson & Crick)? They had the finished product, now they had to work out how life functions are controlled by and from the nucleus. So what would be necessary in this case would be to reverse engineer the language of the Biblical texts to see how and why they were written and why they were collected? Here one can make use of different tools: Textual criticism, linguistics, internal considerations (grammar, word studies), external considerations (archaeology, history, related texts), related languages, inscriptions, etc.
Definition: Textual Criticism deals with the nature and origin of all the witnesses of a composition or text, in this case the biblical books. In the course of such an inquiry, attempts are made to describe how the texts were written, changed, and transmitted from one generation to the next.
Fact: Monotheism cropped up in a predominantly polytheistic environment. Why? How? When? We have many pieces of the puzzle. Using above mentioned tools, we can start putting the pieces together. The picture that is starting to form is still imperfect, many gaps still, but it is much clearer now than it was a hundred years ago. So you don't have to look too far for the evidence. It's right there in front of you.
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Brilliant Article On Aging
by metatron inhttp://www.anti-agingfirewalls.com/2013/04/19/autophagy-the-housekeeper-in-every-cell-that-fights-aging-2/.
the above relates to one my interests, fighting the aging process (i've seen it and decided not to participate).
the really cool thing is that it ties together nearly every successful anti-aging intervention into one biological process.
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Vidqun
*lost*, what I last heard is that sperm also deteriorates as the person gets older. Some of the DNA sequences are lost, defective or doubled up. So I guess having children, the younger you are the better. Young people also have the energy to raise children, so that's nature's way of making sure the best genetic material gets through to the new generation.
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20
Brilliant Article On Aging
by metatron inhttp://www.anti-agingfirewalls.com/2013/04/19/autophagy-the-housekeeper-in-every-cell-that-fights-aging-2/.
the above relates to one my interests, fighting the aging process (i've seen it and decided not to participate).
the really cool thing is that it ties together nearly every successful anti-aging intervention into one biological process.
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Vidqun
Thanks Metatron, impressive article indeed. I rememer there is one cell line, HeLa cells, that circumvent the Hayflick limit, used for cancer research. These cells originated from a patient with cervical cancer, and they keep on propagating themselves. By now there should be a few ton of these cells in research laboratories. I wonder how they fit into the scheme of things?