Punky, one question. They are encouraging the ill sister to attend meetings. Did the sister in the iron lung attend meetings? That's very unlikely, so that is a pathetic example. And if you are ill, say with flue (or Ebola), then it would be a loving gesture to stay home, otherwise you infect all those at the KH. When I hear such things, one thought crosses my mind: S*#it for brains!
Posts by Vidqun
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46How would you answer?
by punkofnice ina friend of mine (who is waking up), recently had the elders do a sheep herding visit.. they were browbeating my friend about attending meetings.
my friend has been ill and unable to attend anyway.. what response would you give to this garbage?.
if we were in a house and it was on fire and we couldnt walk we would have to crawl.. an example of a sister with an iron lung was brought up to show that if shes in this condition, we need to examine ourselves.
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Biblical Prohecies That Came True?
by Viviane inrecently there have been several claims made regarding prophecies that came true.
i've not personally seen a prophecy that i would consider as having come true.
i would consider the following as the requirements to say something is a prophecy and evaluate whether or not it came true:.
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Vidqun
As for Viv's criteria, I have good news for you. You will be able to apply those after the resurrection (cf. Dan. 12:13). There will be eye witnesses around that will be able to tell you what had transpired. Then you will be able find out first hand what was predicted and how it came to be. Until then, you will have to use discernment and good judgment when sorting through the reports of writers and historians, some accurate, some not so accurate. After looking at the full picture (of history), you will be in a position to prove or disprove your theory or hypothesis.
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250
Biblical Prohecies That Came True?
by Viviane inrecently there have been several claims made regarding prophecies that came true.
i've not personally seen a prophecy that i would consider as having come true.
i would consider the following as the requirements to say something is a prophecy and evaluate whether or not it came true:.
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Vidqun
I am not clued up with Ezekiel or his prophecies. I quote what I could find on the subject. Unfortunately I am not in a position to judge whether it happened or not. I just don't know. I wasn't there. But that doesn't mean that it didn't happen. If Cyrus could divert the Euphrates, surely Nebuchadnezzar could divert some of the Nile Canals.
After viewing this prophecy in its entirety, I am convinced that it did happen exactly as foretold. The Israelites were warned to subject themselves under the Babylonians, and not to flee to Egypt. If they refused, there would be dire consequences. There were. Jerusalem was sacked and the nation had to go into exile. But you skeptics would say all done after the fact even if there is evidence to the contrary. That's your prerogative. You believe what you want.
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Biblical Prohecies That Came True?
by Viviane inrecently there have been several claims made regarding prophecies that came true.
i've not personally seen a prophecy that i would consider as having come true.
i would consider the following as the requirements to say something is a prophecy and evaluate whether or not it came true:.
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Vidqun
Ilikecheese, has a point. If one can “prove” prophecy, that would be an indication that God exists. That’s why I would catogorize myself as a theist, until such time as I am proven wrong.
For Punky: Seems like Nebuchadnezzar did invade Egypt, but the information is scanty. One thing I know for sure, Egypt was never the same after his invasion. From then on Egypt was a secondary power:
Following the pacification of the Phoenician state of Tyre, Nebuchadnezzar turned again to Egypt. A clay tablet, now in the BritishMuseum, states: "In the 37th year of Nebuchadnezzar, king of the country of Babylon, he went to Mizraim (Egypt) to wage war. Amasis, king of Egypt, collected [his army], and marched and spread abroad." [1]
The following article discusses the next chapter (Is. 30). Scholars split the two, because Nebuchadnezzar would only fulfill Is. 29. Much later Cambyses and Ptolemy Lathyrus would do the rest.
Significantly enough, then, Egypt’s history records the fulfillment of more striking prophecy than does any other nation’s. Their mighty capital, Thebes, has fallen in ruin just as Ezekiel foretold (ch. 30:14–16). By No the Scriptures generally designate the magnificent city of Thebes. “Such vast and surprising remains are still to be seen,” says Pococke, “of such magnificence, and solidity, as may convince any one who beholds them that, without some extraordinary accident, they must have lasted forever; which seems to have been the intention of the founders of them.” However, there are no accidents with God. Thebes sank beneath two of the most terrible blows ever dealt by the hand of man, both of them after the prophecy of downfall. The first destruction came from Cambyses, and the second from Ptolemy Lathyrus. Not until 25 BC was the third part of Ezekiel’s prophecy fulfilled, when the city was finally broken up into separate villages. [2]
[ 1] Elgood, Percival George. 1951. Later Dynasties of Egypt. Oxford: Basil Blackwell, p. 106.
[2] Bibliotheca Sacra Volume 93. 1936 (371) (pp. 350, 351). Dallas, TX: Dallas Theological Seminary.
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Biblical Prohecies That Came True?
by Viviane inrecently there have been several claims made regarding prophecies that came true.
i've not personally seen a prophecy that i would consider as having come true.
i would consider the following as the requirements to say something is a prophecy and evaluate whether or not it came true:.
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Vidqun
Viv, after all we've been through, you're like a stuck record, specific names, dates and events. And I repeat, it would be impossible to get first hand knowledge of these things unless you have a time machine. And the Council of Jamnia was your straw man (Phizzy also assisted there). Did you not read the quote from Prof. Kahle's book? You're right, it's not important, but you made an issue out of it. I looked it up and found a lot of conflicting sources. But you were so sure of yourself, I thought you had proof, but actually you've only got the opinion of the person that wrote the Wikipedia article. What an anticlimax!
Hi there Punky, good to hear from you. Perhaps the Israelites were disobedient to their God, and did not follow orders. Concerning the Jebusites, eventually David got rid of them, if I remember correctly. Better late than never. Not sure of Ezekiel's prophecy concerning Egypt though. Let me look it up and see what I can unearth.
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Biblical Prohecies That Came True?
by Viviane inrecently there have been several claims made regarding prophecies that came true.
i've not personally seen a prophecy that i would consider as having come true.
i would consider the following as the requirements to say something is a prophecy and evaluate whether or not it came true:.
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Vidqun
Are you not following the thread? You are so sure of yourself, "an outright fabrication," a sweeping statement indeed, for which I need proof.
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Biblical Prohecies That Came True?
by Viviane inrecently there have been several claims made regarding prophecies that came true.
i've not personally seen a prophecy that i would consider as having come true.
i would consider the following as the requirements to say something is a prophecy and evaluate whether or not it came true:.
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Vidqun
You made a statement. You prove it.
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Biblical Prohecies That Came True?
by Viviane inrecently there have been several claims made regarding prophecies that came true.
i've not personally seen a prophecy that i would consider as having come true.
i would consider the following as the requirements to say something is a prophecy and evaluate whether or not it came true:.
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Vidqun
Right, let's stick to the facts. Outright fabrication you say? Why am I waiting for the facts?
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Biblical Prohecies That Came True?
by Viviane inrecently there have been several claims made regarding prophecies that came true.
i've not personally seen a prophecy that i would consider as having come true.
i would consider the following as the requirements to say something is a prophecy and evaluate whether or not it came true:.
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Vidqun
Phizzy, during the time of the copying of the DSS (200 BCE - 68 CE), a standard consonantal text had not yet been established. The Biblical texts of Qumran can be divided into three groups:
1) Those related to the Masoretic Text (MT),
2) Those related to the Samaritan Pentateuch, and
3) Those related to the LXX.
Above is the first window. A consonantal text from Wadi Murabba`at, originating from the time of the Bar Kochba Revolt (132 - 135 CE), would create a second window for scholars to peer into. Now they were afforded an opportunity to glance at the text situation during the Bar Kochba Rebellion. These MSS belong to the Proto-Masoretic text type, which proves that this text was by then viewed as being authoritative. By then it had supplanted all other text types.
Professor Paul Kahle puts it this way: “Thus there came in existence an authoritative text of the Torah, substantially the consonantal text of our present Masoretic text. This text was established with the aid of early manuscripts that were then available, and in contrast to the widely used popular texts of the period, which the Samaritan Pentateuch survives as an example, it gives the impression of greater age and value. The remaining books of the Bible followed. We cannot trace all the stages of the work in detail, but the result is quite evident.” [1]
[1] P. Kahle, Die hebräischen Handschriften aus der Höhle (1951), p. 28f.
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Biblical Prohecies That Came True?
by Viviane inrecently there have been several claims made regarding prophecies that came true.
i've not personally seen a prophecy that i would consider as having come true.
i would consider the following as the requirements to say something is a prophecy and evaluate whether or not it came true:.
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Vidqun
Viv, let's do some revision. Do you accept or reject Josephus' testimony? Do you not think he would have been attacked by his peers for lying? What about the report by the liberal scholar John J. Collins? As to the status of the book of Daniel and the date of the documents and their compilation, you have been presented with the evidence. Now you have to accept or reject it. If you believe it to be false, you have to present evidence to the contrary.
Josephus viewed Daniel as “one of the greatest prophets,” because not only did he prophesy future things, but he also fixed the time during which these would come to pass. He was also of the opinion that the book of Daniel was in existence prior to the arrival of Alexander the Great in the fourth century BCE. He viewed the third kingdom of Dan. 2 as Greece , “from the west,” intimating that the fourth would be Rome . Elsewhere Josephus interprets the actions of Antiochus IV Epiphanes as being the fulfillment of prophecies made by Daniel in the 6th century BCE. He also tells of a tower that Daniel had built at the height of his fame, at Ecbatana or Susa (according to Jerome’s copy) that became the burial place of kings. This structure was still in existence in his day, so his detractors could go and see it. [1]
According to J. J. Collins, Jewish tradition related the end of the Prophecy of the Seventy Weeks to the destruction of the temple, an interpretation that may already be implied in Josephus: “Daniel also wrote about the empire of the Romans and that Jerusalem would be taken by them and the temple laid waste.” [2]
Daniel as Scripture: At the Council of Jamnia, held after the A.D. 70 fall of Jerusalem to discuss whether certain books should be maintained as Scripture, the place of Daniel was clearly secure. From what we know of the deliberations of the Jewish religious leadership, Daniel’s place in the canon was never even a matter of discussion. It had already been fully accepted. This is established even more firmly by the Dead Sea Scrolls, discovered at Qumran in 1947. Not only were several copies of the book of Daniel discovered, but other scrolls were found which were based upon Daniel-related material. These include the Prayer of Nabonidus, Pseudo-Daniel and the Book of Giants. Roger T. Beckwith discusses different computations of the Seventy Weeks prophecy. In his book he states that the Essenes’ “interpretation of the 70 Weeks is first found in the Testament of Levi and the Pseudo-Moses Documents . . . , which probably means that it was worked out before 146 B.C.” Having also examined dates based on Daniel 9 as calculated by Jewish sects other than the Essenes, Beckwith concludes: “These considerations do not make easier but more difficult the problem of the origin of the Book of Daniel. Nevertheless, they are among the data which, especially since the Qumran discoveries, have been accumulating to necessitate a reconsideration of the common Maccabean dating of that book.” [3] The latest studies indicate that much of the messianic Qumran literature that depends on Daniel can be dated to before 150 B.C. In other words, by the time of the Maccabees, Daniel had clearly already been accepted as Scripture. On that basis the writer of Daniel could not have been contemporaneous with the Maccabees and the writers of the Qumran material. This adds credence to the Jewish Talmudic teaching that the book was written (or edited) and included in the canon of Scripture by the Great Synagogue before it ceased to operate during the time of Simon the Just (circa 300 B.C.). Jews believed that the canon of Scripture was closed at that point—nothing more could be added. This would also suggest that, contrary to critics, Josephus’s claim about Alexander the Great and the high priest cannot simply be dismissed as patriotic propaganda (see also Ivor C. Fletcher’s Internet article, “Daniel in the Critics’ Den,” Vision-Insights and New Horizons).
[1] Josephus, Antiquities, Book X, Chapter XI, § 7; Book X, Chapter X, § 4; Book XI, Chapter VIII, § 5; Book XII, Chapter VII § 6 (W. Whiston translation).
[2] John J. Collins, A Commentary on the Book of Daniel , Hermeneia-series, p. 356, footnote 82.
[3] Roger T. Beckwith, Calendar and Chronology, Jewish and Christian: biblical, intertestamental and patristic studies (1996), E. J. Brill, Leiden, The Netherlands, pp. 260-262, 275.