Posts by Vidqun

47

Evolution is a Fact #37 - Testicles

by cofty in

take a look at the back of your tv/entertainment centre.

a mass of power and signal cables connect the various pieces of equipment in very specific ways.

imagine you wanted to switch the locations of your satellite receiver and your dvd player.

Vidqun

LoveUniHateExams, yes I love nature and all critters in it. Some of them I love less, e.g., viruses, tapeworms, mosquitoes, etc. But all of them, great and small, fascinates me no end. Think of the Zika virus and the mosquito, a fascinating development and an open field for research. Is the Zika virus the culprit? Did the virus mutate spontaneously or with the help of pesticides? Wish I was younger that I could research it. According to the experts, originally the mosquito lived off sap of trees. But then he migrated from there and noticed sacks of blood walking around on the ground. Again a case of adaptation, not evolution.

Notsurewheretogo, for one, science is moving very fast. Today we have junk DNA, tomorrow we find out what it's for. Saw a documentary on meter long leeches in American rivers. Would not want to encounter one of those while swimming. Same with a shark. But that doesn't make them less fascinating.

Diogenesister, perhaps you've missed this part: “Human-designed devices, such as radios and computers, do not need to function until their assembly is complete. By contrast, living organisms must function to a high degree in order to thrive during every developmental stage from a single-cell zygote to adult. The embryo as a whole must be a fully functioning system in its specific environment during every second of its entire development. For this reason, adult anatomy can be understood only in the light of development.” One would not be able to unplug, shorten or alter a nerve, artery or vein in the process of development. The zygote and later the embryo needs all of this to function all the time for it to continue living.

Liberator, yes I find the comparison with the development of a car and submarine interesting. All those things need to be designed and manufactured by someone. But when it comes to living beings (much more complicated in design and manufacture) we prefer to ascribe it to coincidence or Mother Nature. Again it comes down to the template of life, i.e., DNA. No matter who you are, if you start manufacturing you need a basic template. From this template you will be able to build or subtract or change. Does this not make sense?

71

Confusing Opinions with Facts

by cofty in

in a discussion about the best flavour of ice cream everybody's opinion is equally valid.. in a discussion about the shape of the earth or the origin of species everybody's opinion is equally irrelevant.

only objective facts and evidence matter.. confusing these two categories is a common feature of conversations in this forum.

people deserve respect, errors do not..

Vidqun

Cofty, does it not have a lot to do with the interpretation of the facts? You believe in evolution because that is how you interpret the facts. I believe in creation, because that is how I interpret the facts.

47

Evolution is a Fact #37 - Testicles

by cofty in

take a look at the back of your tv/entertainment centre.

a mass of power and signal cables connect the various pieces of equipment in very specific ways.

imagine you wanted to switch the locations of your satellite receiver and your dvd player.

Vidqun

Yes, God did that for a reason that you will soon find out. Revision: template, embryology. The giraffe is a beautiful animal. I only have praise for it and its designer.

47

Evolution is a Fact #37 - Testicles

by cofty in

take a look at the back of your tv/entertainment centre.

a mass of power and signal cables connect the various pieces of equipment in very specific ways.

imagine you wanted to switch the locations of your satellite receiver and your dvd player.

Vidqun

If I mention the contents of articles and text books and don't quote the source, I am in the dogbox. If I do give the source of the information, I am also in the dogbox. I am happy to be in the dogbox, but I will nevertheless say my say, whether you like it or not. Let’s just make sure we practice what we preach. Don’t you know, What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

Benefits of the current RLN setup (the left recurrent laryngeal nerve is not poorly designed, but rather is clear evidence of intelligent design):

Much evidence exists that the present design results from developmental constraints.

There are indications that this design serves to fine-tune laryngeal functions.

The nerve serves to innervate other organs after it branches from the vagus on its way to the larynx.

The design provides backup innervation to the larynx in case another nerve is damaged.

No evidence exists that the design causes any disadvantage.1

Cofty, see what I wrote to Cantleave. I don’t want to keep on repeating myself.

But to add to that, some of us prefer to look at the big picture. If one asserts that the RLN is a poor design you assume that a better design exists, a claim that cannot be asserted unless an alternative embryonic design from fertilized ovum to fetus - including all the incalculable molecular gradients, triggers, cascades, and anatomical twists and tucks - can be proposed that documents an improved design. After this had been accomplished, such a person can criticize the existing design to his heart’s content. Until then, shut up or ship out.

1. Bergman, J. 2010. Recurrent Laryngeal Nerve Is Not Evidence of Poor Design. Acts & Facts. 39 (8): 12-14.

Dr. Bergman is an Adjunct Associate Professor at the University of Toledo Medical School in Ohio.

47

Evolution is a Fact #37 - Testicles

by cofty in

take a look at the back of your tv/entertainment centre.

a mass of power and signal cables connect the various pieces of equipment in very specific ways.

imagine you wanted to switch the locations of your satellite receiver and your dvd player.

Vidqun

No, Cantleave, you are missing the point and clouding the issue.

Did you miss this point: Human-designed devices, such as radios and computers, do not need to function until their assembly is complete. By contrast, living organisms must function to a high degree in order to thrive during every developmental stage from a single-cell zygote to adult. The embryo as a whole must be a fully functioning system in its specific environment during every second of its entire development.

I, personally, ascribe the position of the laryngeal nerve to the development of the fetus, "necessary consequences of developmental dynamics," and not because of bad design. Blechschmidt compares it to the course of a river, which "cannot be explained on the basis of a knowledge of its sources, its tributaries, or the specific locations of the harbors at its mouth. It is only the total topographical circumstances that determine the river's course." This has been confirmed by dissection of human cadavers. The fact that Blechschmidt believes in the theory of evolution is not important. Whatever the case, he will not be using the position of the laryngeal nerve in the human body as a proof of this theory, I can assure you.

The article you mention actually discusses the benefits of this arrangement, so it's not bad design at all. Actually, it's brilliant.

47

Evolution is a Fact #37 - Testicles

by cofty in

take a look at the back of your tv/entertainment centre.

a mass of power and signal cables connect the various pieces of equipment in very specific ways.

imagine you wanted to switch the locations of your satellite receiver and your dvd player.

Vidqun

Cofty, there’s always two sides to a story. Here’s another variation on the theme. Anyway, this is how I see it:

The most logical reason is that the RLN design is due to developmental constraints. Eminent embryologist Professor Erich Blechschmidt wrote that the recurrent laryngeal nerve's seemingly poor design in adults is due to the "necessary consequences of developmental dynamics," not historical carryovers from evolution. 1

Human-designed devices, such as radios and computers, do not need to function until their assembly is complete. By contrast, living organisms must function to a high degree in order to thrive during every developmental stage from a single-cell zygote to adult. The embryo as a whole must be a fully functioning system in its specific environment during every second of its entire development. For this reason, adult anatomy can be understood only in the light of development. An analogy Blechschmidt uses to help elucidate this fact is the course of a river, which "cannot be explained on the basis of a knowledge of its sources, its tributaries, or the specific locations of the harbors at its mouth. It is only the total topographical circumstances that determine the river's course." 2

Due to variations in the topographical landscape of the mammalian body, the "course of the inferior [meaning lower] laryngeal nerve is highly variant" and minor anatomic differences are common. 3 Dissections of human cadavers found that the paths of the right and left recurrent laryngeal nerves were often somewhat different from that shown in the standard literature, illustrating Blechschmidt's analogy. 4

Blechschmidt, E. 2004. The Ontogenetic Basis of Human Anatomy: A Biodynamic Approach to Development from Conception to Birth. B. Freeman, transl. New York: North Atlantic Books, 188.
Ibid, 108.
Sturniolo, G. et al. 1999. The Recurrent Laryngeal Nerve Related to Thyroid Surgery. The American Journal of Surgery. 177: 487-488.
Steinberg, J. L., G. J. Khane, C. M. C. Fernanades and J. P. Nel. 1986. Anatomy of the recurrent laryngeal nerve: A redescription. The Journal of Laryngology and Otology. 100: 919.

47

Evolution is a Fact #37 - Testicles

by cofty in

take a look at the back of your tv/entertainment centre.

a mass of power and signal cables connect the various pieces of equipment in very specific ways.

imagine you wanted to switch the locations of your satellite receiver and your dvd player.

Vidqun

Cofty, you have an obsession with copy and paste. I did not copy and paste. I looked it up in the printed edition, the emphasis being on the embryology. I don't intimidate by textbook. By the way, I don't see you listing your sources all the time. Why do you expect it of others then?

What research did you do in the study of of the origin of eukariotic cells? You read a few books. Same here. So let's not dwell on it.

Fish ancestors and the tree of life. Again, that is funny. From fish to man. I just don't see it, even after millions of years.

As I mentioned, the laryngeal nerve, aorta and vas deferens works well. All of these designs contributed to the survival of the species. Why I mentioned embryology, all the above must be packaged in embryonal form first. Gradually these will be rolled out in an orderly manner in a healthy embryo. Most of these "impracticle" designs could be traced back to embryology and the deposit of stem cells. One should not only examine the end product, but also where it comes from.

Take my word for it, we are brilliantly designed. When I look at history, I marvel at the fact that man has survived all the adversities thrown at him. I believe one should only criticize a design if and when one can improve on it. So far I don't see any improvements by the geneticists. If its not broken, it's not necessary to fix it.

It's late. Time for bed.

47

Evolution is a Fact #37 - Testicles

by cofty in

take a look at the back of your tv/entertainment centre.

a mass of power and signal cables connect the various pieces of equipment in very specific ways.

imagine you wanted to switch the locations of your satellite receiver and your dvd player.

Vidqun

Wrong again. Try Gray's Anatomy, 35th edition.

47

Evolution is a Fact #37 - Testicles

by cofty in

take a look at the back of your tv/entertainment centre.

a mass of power and signal cables connect the various pieces of equipment in very specific ways.

imagine you wanted to switch the locations of your satellite receiver and your dvd player.

Vidqun

Let me see, a logical fallacy is “a mistaken belief, especially one based on unsound arguments” (Oxford). Thanks for that. Actually I notice quite a few of those in Cofty’s threads dealing with evolution. Really, to use the working of the mitochondria of bacteria to prove the origin of our mitochondria, now that is funny.

Cofty, your book argument is boring. You’ll have to try another approach to intimidate me. That one doesn’t work. Anyway, you have a short memory. You may not remember, but I am a qualified Medical Microbiologist with Anatomy, Physiology and Microbiology as majors. Yes, I have a lot of books dealing with those subjects. I had to work through all of them to pass those subjects.

Clue: Follow the migration of the testes, then you will be able to work out the connections. See where the testes originate from. See where they go. The spermatic cord follows that path.

47

Evolution is a Fact #37 - Testicles

by cofty in

take a look at the back of your tv/entertainment centre.

a mass of power and signal cables connect the various pieces of equipment in very specific ways.

imagine you wanted to switch the locations of your satellite receiver and your dvd player.

Vidqun

Let's start with embryology. The gonads start as primordial germ cells.They are identified after the fourth week of development. The descent of the testes is not merely a simple migration. At first it lies on the dorsal abdominal wall, but as it enlarges, its cranial end degenerates, and the organ therefore assumes a more caudal position. It is attached to the mesonephric fold by a peritoneal fold. The undifferentiated gonad contains the testicular vessels and nerves. At the end of the second month the caudal part of the ventral abdominal wall is horizontal but, after the return of the intestines to the peritoneal cavity, it grows in length and becomes vertical.The caudal pole of the testes is retained in apposition with the deep inguinal ring by the gubernaculum until the seventh month, when it suddenly and rapidly passes passes through the inguinal canal and gains the scrotum. As it descends it is necessarily accompanied by its peritoneal covering, and the adjoining peritoneum from the iliac fossa is drawn down into the processus vaginalis. The distal end of the processus vaginalis, into which the testes projects, forms the tunica vaginalis testis, but the portion associated with the spermatic cord in the scrotum and in the inguinal canal normally becomes obliterated. The fascial coverings of the testis and spermatic cord, including the cremaster, are developed from the gubernaculum testis. The testis must follow the processus vaginalis, and should the latter for any reason follow any but the scrotal bundle of the gubernaculum, malposition of the testis will result.

So yes, it has to do with the development of the testis in the embryo. I believe a template of life was originally established. The same template was used to create life, and adapted to the different life forms, thus the similarities in structure. The whole process was carefully designed and put together by a superior intelligence. Life was no accident.