Vidqun

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Posts by Vidqun

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  71

  Evolution is a Fact #38 - The Origin of Complex Cells

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in 1966 microbiologist kwang jeon was studying a population of amoebae in the lab when they began to die off unexpectedly.

  he noticed thousands of tiny dots in the cytoplasm of each individual which turned out to be a bacterial infection.

  most of them weakened and died but surprisingly a small percentage recovered and seemed to be back to normal.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vidqun

  Next installment from the pseudo-scientists, or is it a case of the truth hurting?

  Archaea were recognized as a unique domain of life based on the sequence comparisons of ribosomal RNA (rRNA) of various organisms by Woese and colleagues. 1

  Archaea differ from the other two domains of life—bacteria and eukarya —not only in their archaea-specific signatures in certain regions of rRNAs, but also in their cell membranes, which are composed of lipids made of ether, unlike bacteria or eukarya whose membrane lipids are made of ester. 2
  

  In fact, as stated by Woese and colleagues, “for every well characterized molecular system there exists a characteristic eubacterial, archaebacterial, and eukaryotic version”. 3

  Archaea are similar to bacteria in many aspects. Like bacteria, archaea do not have nuclei, and are thus prokaryotes. Archaea also lack other membrane-bound organelles, including mitochondria and chloroplasts. Archaeal genomes are small and circular like those of bacteria. No spliceosomal introns have been found in archaea. Like bacteria, archaea also lack the machinery to synthesize eukaryotic telomeres and to splice spliceosomal introns, two processes essential for the survival of eukaryotes. This shortage of higher level eukaryotic complexity does not hurt archaea in any way because they have no need of these systems. However, the lack of these systems, including any transitional forms for them, creates an unbridgeable chasm between prokaryotes and eukaryotes in the grand evolutionary paradigm. 4

  1. Woese, C. R., and G. E. Fox. 1977. Phylogenetic structure of the prokaryotic domain: The primary kingdoms. Proceedings of the National Academy Sciences USA 74, no. 11:5088–5090.

  2. Gutell, R. R., B. Weiser, C. R. Woese, and H. F. Noller. 1985. Comparative anatomy of 16-S-like ribosomal RNA. Progress in Nucleic Acid Research and Molecular Biology 32:155–216.

  3. Woese, C. R., O. Kandler, and M. L. Wheelis. 1990. Towards a natural system of organisms: proposal for the domains Archaea, Bacteria, and Eucarya. Proceedings of the National Academy Sciences USA 87, no. 12:4576–4579.

  4. “Information Processing Differences Between Archaea and Eukarya—Implications for Homologs and the Myth of Eukaryogenesis,” by C. L. Tan and J. P. Tomkins.
• 
  71

  Evolution is a Fact #38 - The Origin of Complex Cells

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in 1966 microbiologist kwang jeon was studying a population of amoebae in the lab when they began to die off unexpectedly.

  he noticed thousands of tiny dots in the cytoplasm of each individual which turned out to be a bacterial infection.

  most of them weakened and died but surprisingly a small percentage recovered and seemed to be back to normal.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vidqun

  I can't put it better than that. Perhaps I can put it in third person passive voice. No then it will not come out right. Why don't you look at the argument instead? Different mechanisms for DNA replication, transcription and translation for prokaryotes (archaea and bacteria) and eucharyotes (plants, animals and fungi): Now, how on earth would these develop? How did they branch off? Where are the intermediate stages of all these processes? Is Mother Nature not brilliant to bring all these processes together? Sorry, I don't believe in magic. By the way, as reported, fossil evidence also offers little support for your theory of eukaryogenesis.
• 
  71

  Evolution is a Fact #38 - The Origin of Complex Cells

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in 1966 microbiologist kwang jeon was studying a population of amoebae in the lab when they began to die off unexpectedly.

  he noticed thousands of tiny dots in the cytoplasm of each individual which turned out to be a bacterial infection.

  most of them weakened and died but surprisingly a small percentage recovered and seemed to be back to normal.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vidqun

  Cofty, I will be concentrating on no. 5. Let's begin at the beginning:

  So, in the grand evolutionary scheme, a mythical prokaryote to eukaryote cellular transition allegedly gave rise to the diversity of eukaryotic life (eukaryogenesis). A key problem with this idea is the fact that the prokaryotes is divided into two apparent domains (bacteria and archaea). Eukaryotes share similarities to both domains of prokaryotes while also exhibiting many major innovative features found in neither. Key molecular features surrounding DNA replication, transcription, and translation are fundamentally distinct in eukaryotes despite superficial similarities to prokaryotes, particularly archaea. These selected discontinuous molecular chasms highlight the impossibility for eukaryotes having evolved from archaea.

  Eukaryotes are organisms with cells much larger than prokaryotes that possess nuclei and other membrane enclosed intracellular organelles. Thus, many of their processes are highly compartmentalized and more complicated than those of the most complex prokaryotes. In fact, a typical eukaryotic cell is about a thousand times larger in volume than a typical bacterial or archaeal cell and a fundamental eukaryote-prokaryote dichotomy clearly exists in regards to intracellular organization, complexity, and innovation. Besides, eukaryotes themselves are highly diverse life forms (plants, animals and fungi), comprising a diverse array of unicellular organisms with extremely complex genomic features. 1

  In the grand evolutionary paradigm, the origin of the eukaryotic cell represents one of the great mysteries and key hypothetical transitions of life that is alleged to have occurred over one billion years ago—termed eukaryogenesis. Fossils offer little support to the eukaryogenesis model as one-celled eukaryotes from alleged strata of this age are already incredibly diversified—exhibiting complicated cellular innovations typical of extant species. 2

  1. “Information Processing Differences Between Archaea and Eukarya—Implications for Homologs and the Myth of Eukaryogenesis,” by C. L. Tan and J. P. Tomkins.

  2. Knoll, A. H., E. J. Javaux, D. Hewitt, and P. Cohen. 2006. Eukaryotic organisms in Proterozoic oceans. Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society of London B Biological Sciences 361, no. 1470: pp. 1023–1038.
  

  
  
• 
  71

  Evolution is a Fact #38 - The Origin of Complex Cells

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in 1966 microbiologist kwang jeon was studying a population of amoebae in the lab when they began to die off unexpectedly.

  he noticed thousands of tiny dots in the cytoplasm of each individual which turned out to be a bacterial infection.

  most of them weakened and died but surprisingly a small percentage recovered and seemed to be back to normal.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vidqun

  These are from the horses' mouth:

  1. The process of endosymbiosis is a process of adaptation of the organism.

  2. Amoeba proteus stays Amoeba proteus.
  

  3. Process of endosymbiosis in Amoeba proteus is a typical or atypical immune response, similar to ours. E.g., when our cells are invaded by viruses, cancer cells could result. If no intervention takes place, we die as Homo sapiens, not as a new species because our nuclear material has been changed or damaged.

  4. You insist that the resulting Amoeba is a new species. That hasn't been proved as yet. View it as a variant strain of Amoeba proteus.

  5. Huge barriers exist for symbiogenesis to take place. What are these barriers? Although there are similarities among archaea, eukaryotes and bacteria, each group is unique. E.g., the mechanisms for DNA replication and translation are specific for each domain, and thus cannot be exchanged. See 6. The circular and linear mitochondrial DNA make it even more complicated, because these are replicated differently. See 7.
• 
  71

  Evolution is a Fact #38 - The Origin of Complex Cells

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in 1966 microbiologist kwang jeon was studying a population of amoebae in the lab when they began to die off unexpectedly.

  he noticed thousands of tiny dots in the cytoplasm of each individual which turned out to be a bacterial infection.

  most of them weakened and died but surprisingly a small percentage recovered and seemed to be back to normal.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vidqun

  I wrote it. I gave you my sources.
• 
  71

  Evolution is a Fact #38 - The Origin of Complex Cells

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in 1966 microbiologist kwang jeon was studying a population of amoebae in the lab when they began to die off unexpectedly.

  he noticed thousands of tiny dots in the cytoplasm of each individual which turned out to be a bacterial infection.

  most of them weakened and died but surprisingly a small percentage recovered and seemed to be back to normal.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vidqun

  The Bold words are my words:

  Perhaps now is a good time to clarify some of the terminology: Symbiogenesis cannot be replicated in a lab (and not endosymbiosis as previously stated). There is a difference. I cannot dispute the process of endosymbiosis which can be demonstrated. However the complete process of symbiogenesis (the evolutionary theory that explains the origin of eukaryotic cells from prokaryotic cells by symbiosis) cannot as yet be demonstrated.

  What should also be kept in mind, is the process of adaptation at work, which is confirmed by Dr. K. W. Jeon.

  It is suggested that the presence of a potent P2 in the X-bacterial gene is an adaptation for the endosymbiotic bacteria to survive within a potentially hostile intracellular environment. 1

  The following discusses the organisms or possible organisms involved in Dr. Jeon’s experiment. Important to note that these organisms remain individual and identifiable as specific species.

  The X-bacteria which initiated organismic association with the D strain of Amoeba proteus in 1966 as parasites have changed to obligate endosymbionts on which the host depends for survival. Owing to the difficulty in cultivating the bacteria in vitro, the identity of X-bacteria has not been determined. The life cycle of X-bacteria is similar to that of Legionella spp. in soil amoebae. 2

  Not sure why this oversight has occurred, but what is described here is the typical (or atypical) immune response of the Amoeba organism, which is not unusual at all. Our immune system has similar response mechanisms to counter invading bacteria and viruses.

  This indicates that phylogenetically and ecologically diverse bacteria which thrive inside amoebae exploit common mechanisms for interaction with their hosts, and it provides further evidence for the role of amoebae as training grounds for bacterial pathogens of humans. 3

  Again, one should not accept as fact that these organisms are a new species. The warning is sounded by two renowned biologists:

  On the basis of the structural and physiological changes brought about by the endosymbionts of xD amoebae as described above, one could consider the the symbiont-bearing xD strain a new species of Amoeba. However, until evidence for genetic differences between D and xD amoebae is obtained, it would be more prudent to treat xD amoebae as belonging to a variant strain. 4

  There are huge barriers to overcome in the proposed process of symbiogenesis. I believe the barriers are insurmountable:
• 
  71

  Evolution is a Fact #38 - The Origin of Complex Cells

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in 1966 microbiologist kwang jeon was studying a population of amoebae in the lab when they began to die off unexpectedly.

  he noticed thousands of tiny dots in the cytoplasm of each individual which turned out to be a bacterial infection.

  most of them weakened and died but surprisingly a small percentage recovered and seemed to be back to normal.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vidqun

  Perhaps now is a good time to clarify some of the terminology: Symbiogenesis [[Symbiogenesis, or endosymbiotic theory, is an evolutionary theory that explains the origin of eukaryotic cells from prokaryotes – Wiki-article]] cannot be replicated in a lab (and not endosymbiosis as previously stated [[previous post on Wiki-article in previous thread]]). There is a difference. I cannot dispute the process of endosymbiosis which can be demonstrated [[as proved by the Wiki-article on Endosymbiotic theory]]. However the complete process of symbiogenesis (the evolutionary theory that explains the origin of eukaryotic cells from prokaryotic cells by symbiosis [[Dr. Lynn Margulis]] cannot as yet be replicated [my very own words].

  The rest I quoted from the authors of the articles, whether from the Abstracts or in book form as the list indicates. Feel free to look them up.
  
• 
  71

  Evolution is a Fact #38 - The Origin of Complex Cells

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in 1966 microbiologist kwang jeon was studying a population of amoebae in the lab when they began to die off unexpectedly.

  he noticed thousands of tiny dots in the cytoplasm of each individual which turned out to be a bacterial infection.

  most of them weakened and died but surprisingly a small percentage recovered and seemed to be back to normal.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vidqun

  See the number. See the quote. Unfortunately, the fonts of the quotes (which I made smaller) reverted back to a single size. That which was quoted comes from the following sources. The abstracts are available on the web. For the full article you must pay:

  1. Abstract: “A novel strong promoter of the groEx operon of symbiotic bacteria in Amoeba proteus.” Abstract: Dr K.W. Jeon, Department of Zoology, University of Tennessee, Knoxville, TN 37996-0810, USA.

  2. Abstract: “Phylogenetic characterization of Legionella-like endosymbiotic X-bacteria in Amoeba proteus: a proposal for ‘Candidatus Legionella jeonii’ sp. nov.”
  

  3. Abstract: “The Genome of the Amoeba Symbiont “Candidatus Amoebophilus asiaticus” Reveals Common Mechanisms for Host Cell Interaction among Amoeba-Associated Bacteria.”

  4. Symbiosis as a Source of Evolutionary Innovation: Speciation and Morphogenesis, by Lynn Margulis and René Fester, p. 125.
  

  5. Molecular Phylogeny of Microorganisms, by Aharon Oren and R. Thane Papke, p. 198.

  6. “Information Processing Differences Between Archaea and Eukarya—Implications for Homologs and the Myth of Eukaryogenesis,” by C. L. Tan and J. P. Tomkins.

  7. Linear mitochondrial genomes: 30 years down the line. Josef Nosek, L’Ubomir Tomaska, Hiroshi Fukuhara, and Ladislav Kovac.
• 
  71

  Evolution is a Fact #38 - The Origin of Complex Cells

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in 1966 microbiologist kwang jeon was studying a population of amoebae in the lab when they began to die off unexpectedly.

  he noticed thousands of tiny dots in the cytoplasm of each individual which turned out to be a bacterial infection.

  most of them weakened and died but surprisingly a small percentage recovered and seemed to be back to normal.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vidqun

  Cofty, whatever you see or say, the above are the reasons for what I believe, similar to your initial post. That's what you believe, isn't it? You are allowed to say your say, but I am not? Like it or lump it.
• 
  71

  Evolution is a Fact #38 - The Origin of Complex Cells

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in 1966 microbiologist kwang jeon was studying a population of amoebae in the lab when they began to die off unexpectedly.

  he noticed thousands of tiny dots in the cytoplasm of each individual which turned out to be a bacterial infection.

  most of them weakened and died but surprisingly a small percentage recovered and seemed to be back to normal.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vidqun

  And I quote: "The Wiki article reveals a few flaws with the theory symbiogenesis." Go and look it up. I could not access your article, so I used Wiki instead.

  I used the Wiki-article to point out the flaws, and I wrote it out and commented on the article. No copy and paste. Makes me think: Farting against thunder, flogging a dead horse, yeah, both of you. Cantleave, is that the best you can do?