Posts by Vidqun

62

Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

by Duran in

revelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?

what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.

what beast is the 8th king?.

PetrW, yes, I believe this is what is explained in Chapter 13. The combination beast includes previous empires closely associated with Israel. Seven heads: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, British Empire (later Anglo-American).

The combination beast from the sea is a conglomeration of Daniel’s four beasts (except for Egypt and Assyria). This beast would have a limited lifespan of 42 months. Head with mortal wound is the British Empire, economically on its last legs. Soon afterwards the damaged head is healed. The US comes to the assistance of the UK by declaring war on Germany and entering World War I on April 4, 1917. The healed head now becomes the Anglo-American World Power. This beast with healed head would be active for 42 months = 3½ years, from April, 1917 to November, 1920 (cf. Rev. 13:1-3, 5).

A major product of the Paris Peace Conference is the Covenant of the League of Nations, submitted in a first draft February 14, 1919, and finally approved, in a revised version, April 28, 1919. The League was officially brought into being January 10, 1920. The first meeting of the Assembly of the League takes place on November 15, 1920. This date marks the dissolution of Beast from the sea as the image of the beast becomes active (13:11, 14, 15).

As an image it turned out to be useless, ceasing operations April 20, 1946. This peace-keeping organization had attempted to take the place of God’s Messianic kingdom. Thus, in God’s eyes the image of the beast would be “an abomination” (13:14; cf. Dan. 11:31; 12:11). From the standpoint of the angel (and God), this man-made “abomination” amounts to a pathetic nonentity. True to form, it would disappear from sight in the clouds of World War II: “The beast that you saw existed once but now exists no longer” (Rev 17:8a NAB). So, as for the League of Nations, the emphasis would be on the “abomination”-part.

After the 42 months two things would have happened. The healed head of Beast from the sea would become Beast from the earth. A powerful confimation of this is Rev. 13:13, e.g., Direct Energy Weapons or DEWs. Not bad for a 2,000 year prophecy. This new beast insists on making an image, i.e., the League of Nations. Later breath was given the image, and it became a beast in its own right, i.e., Beast from the abyss or UN (in the abyss = inactive; out of the abyss = active).

So, in contrast to your elaborate constructions, I believe all the pieces of the chessboard are in place for the Great Tribulation to commence. Another interesting prophecy soon to be fulfilled is this one: "Then the kings of the earth, the officials and the generals, the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in caves and in the rocks of the mountains" (Rev. 6:15 CEB).

62

Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

by Duran in

revelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?

what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.

what beast is the 8th king?.

Vidqun

PetrW, yes, the beasts are related. They are the creations of the Dragon, Satan the Devil. But I am wary to conflate the scriptures unless there's very good reason for it. There's a reason why "the sea" and "the abyss" is used. It is not the same thing. The Society does the same.

I believe, In the abyss = inactive. Out of the abyss = active. Here's what a dictionary says of the abyss:

The abyss (Hebrew: תְּהוֹם; Greek: ἄβυσσος) can be favourably compared to the realm of the dead. Paul contrasts “ascent into heaven” with “descent into the abyss,” but because Christ was there, the abyss should not be conceived as an evil or demonic realm (Rom. 10:7; cf. Luke 8:31). A star (or angel) has the key to unlock the abyss, unleashing a locust-scorpion plague to torment mankind (Rev. 1:20; 9:1-3). God also allows the beast to come up from the abyss (17:8, 9, 11; cf. 11:7, 8). Later Satan the Devil would be sealed in the abyss for a thousand years (20:1-3).

The following is what I wrote to the Society. They argued that Rutherford and Co. were the "two witnesses," between 1914-18. I argued that's impossible. Beast from the abyss did not exist as yet. They obviously didn't like my criticism for I was disfellowshipped for my trouble:

A first fundamental flaw of the Watchtower interpretation of the two witnesses is the fact that they distinguish between Beast from the abyss of Rev. 11:7 and the scarlet-colored wild beast of 17:8; 18:1.

Most agree 17:8 and 18:1 refer to the same beast. In addition, in 17:8 the beast “is about to ascend out of the abyss,” whereas 11:7 describes the beast “that ascends out of the abyss.” These two are one and the same, the abyss and the state of the beast’s ascension being the common denominators.
A second shortcoming in their reasoning, compounding their error, is their belief that 11:7 and 17:8 follow in chronological order, which is clearly not the case.
In a footnote of Revelation-Its Grand Climax At Hand! (p.167) we discover some special pleading in order to justify their belief. Here the emphasis is craftily placed on the Hebrew instead of the Greek:

The “abyss” (Greek abyssos; Hebrew, tehohm’) refers symbolically to a place of inactivity. (See Revelation 9:2) In a literal sense, however, it can also refer to the vast sea. (Ps. 71:20; 106:9; Jonah 2:5) The Hebrew word is often translated “watery deep.” Thus “the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss” can be identified with “the wild beast ascending out of the sea.”

62

Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

by Duran in

revelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?

what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.

what beast is the 8th king?.

Vidqun

Let me start here. One must first decide on the sequence of Revelation and where everything fits in. This is how I see it. Then I'll take it from there. I do believe the beasts would have appeared during the breaking of the first three seals. Most things are already in place.

PetrW, I'm with you till "This is my basic view of the beasts of Rev 13 and 17. It is one and the same beast." Here I disagree. 1) Beast from sea. 2) Beast from earth. 3) Beast from abyss. Three beasts. And I compare "earth" of Revelation with Daniel's clay (in iron and clay part of image). Same substance. I think you "overthink" things. I go for Occam's Razor, i.e., simplest explanation is usually the best explanation.

Revelation 1:1-20 Prologue: The Day of the Lord

2:1-28 Messages to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum and Thyatira congregation

3:1-22 Messages to Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea congregation

4:1-11 Beginning of the Lord’s day: God’s throne

12:1-17 Dragon and his angels expelled from heaven

13:1 Dragon on sea shore

13:2-18 Beast from the sea, Beast from the earth (the false prophet) and Image of the beast

17:8-14 Scarlet-colored wild beast

5:1-14 Scroll with seven seals

6:1-17 Breaking of the seals

7:1-8 Hundred and forty four thousand sealed

8:1-13 Seventh seal: Trumpet blast one to four

9:1-12 Trumpet blast five (1st Woe)

9:13-21 Trumpet blast six (2nd Woe)

11:3-6 Start of public ministry of two witnesses

10:1-11 Angel with feet on earth and sea

11:14-18 Trumpet blast seven (3rd Woe)

11:1 Measurement of earthly temple

11:2 Earthly temple courtyard trampled by nations

11:19 Heavenly tabernacle opened

15:1-8 Preparation of the plagues

16:1-11 Plague one to five

11:7-13 Death of the two witnesses

16:12-21 Plague six and seven

17:1-7 Identification of Babylon

17:15-18 Fall of Babylon

18:1-24 Mourning for Babylon

7:9-17 Great crowd survives Tribulation

14:6-13 Three final angelic warnings

19:1-10 Wedding of the Lamb

14:1-5 Hundred and forty four thousand

14:14-20 Summary of Armageddon

19:11-21 Armageddon

20:1-15 Christ’s millennial rule

21:1-27 During the millennium. New Jerusalem.

22:1-21 Epilogue

31

Has the Watchtower Faithful Slave become the Evil Slave?

by Vanderhoven7 in

what evidence suggests to you that the wt f&ds is actually more like the es of matthew 24?.

45¶who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?.

46blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.. .

Vidqun

Duran, I'm afraid I have to agree to disagree. I don't see it like that. But we have gone off topic somewhat. This is the stuff of a new thread.

Vidiot, you've got a point. The slave should feed the domestics, not rule over them. Simlar problem existed in the first century congregations:

8 YOU men already have YOUR fill, do YOU? YOU are rich already, are YOU? YOU have begun ruling as kings without us, have YOU? And I wish indeed that YOU had begun ruling as kings, that we also might rule with YOU as kings. (1 Cor. 4:8 NW)

31

Has the Watchtower Faithful Slave become the Evil Slave?

by Vanderhoven7 in

what evidence suggests to you that the wt f&ds is actually more like the es of matthew 24?.

45¶who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?.

46blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.. .

Vidqun

Duran, follow carefully now. Life cycle of the first beast has been cut short = 42 months. End of first beast. Then Beast from the earth instructs the people to make an image of the first beast. The image is new. It is not the first beast but an image of it. Now Beast from the earth blows breath into the image and it becomes a beast in its own right. This is a new beast, based on the first beast. This must then be the scarlet-colored wild beast = beast from the abyss. I accept that the beast thrown into the fire must be the scarlet-colored wild beast. Unfortunately, John doesn't distinguish between the two.

31

Has the Watchtower Faithful Slave become the Evil Slave?

by Vanderhoven7 in

what evidence suggests to you that the wt f&ds is actually more like the es of matthew 24?.

45¶who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?.

46blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.. .

Vidqun

I, again, believe Beast from the sea was absorbed by Beast from the abyss. This follows the natural Revelation chronology. While in the abyss the beast is inactive, while out of the abyss the beast becomes active and eventually take over rulership of the earth (Rev. 17:11-13; cf. Dan. 2:41-43).

31

Has the Watchtower Faithful Slave become the Evil Slave?

by Vanderhoven7 in

what evidence suggests to you that the wt f&ds is actually more like the es of matthew 24?.

45¶who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?.

46blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.. .

Vidqun

Duran, there's three beasts mentioned by John in the book of Revelation: 1) Beast from the sea = Beast with slain head that healed (Rev. 13:1, 3). This beast is a conglomeration of Daniel's four beasts. 2) Beast from the earth = false prophet (13:11, 12). 3) Beast from the abyss = scarlet-colored wild beast (17:3, 8; cf. 11:7). The first beast was either absorbed by the other beasts or it disappeared from the scene because Jesus only deals with the scarlet-colored wild beast and false prophet during Armageddon (cf. 19:20; 20:10).

31

Has the Watchtower Faithful Slave become the Evil Slave?

by Vanderhoven7 in

what evidence suggests to you that the wt f&ds is actually more like the es of matthew 24?.

45¶who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?.

46blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.. .

Vidqun

Watchtower interpretation (not sure whether this is till the case): Beast = United Nations. Babylon the Great = World Empire of False Religion. They joined the UN as NGO and became part of the beast, partying alongside Babylon the Great. So they are condemned by their own interpretation.

31

Has the Watchtower Faithful Slave become the Evil Slave?

by Vanderhoven7 in

what evidence suggests to you that the wt f&ds is actually more like the es of matthew 24?.

45¶who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?.

46blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.. .

Vidqun

They are condemned by their own interpretation of Scripture. One is often identified by the company you keep. To me this sequence of Scriptures stand out. Babylon the Great rides the beast. Did they not also ride the beast with Babylon the Great, even just for a few years? Yes, you are identified by the company you keep!

48 But if ever that evil slave should say in his heart, My master is delaying, 49 and should start to beat his fellow slaves and should eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards (Matt. 24:48-49)

3 And he carried me away in [the power of the] spirit into a wilderness. And I caught sight of a woman sitting upon a scarlet-colored wild beast that was full of blasphemous names and that had seven heads and ten horns. 4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and was adorned with gold and precious stone and pearls and had in her hand a golden cup that was full of disgusting things and the unclean things of her fornication. (Rev. 17:3, 4)

3 For because of the wine of the anger of her fornication all the nations have fallen [victim], and the kings of the earth committed fornication with her, and the traveling merchants of the earth became rich due to the power of her shameless luxury. (Rev. 18:3 NWT) [Cursive script added.]

26

How frequent is this among Jehovah's Witnesses

by vienne in

my grandmother, an immigrant from austria, was.

two of my aunts, their husbands, both elders, various cousins and two of my sisters are witnesses.

so is my grand uncle.

Vidqun

I experienced the sad case of a retired elder that had fallen by the wayside. His daughter was far away, however quite well off. A fellow elder offered to house him. The catch was he had to sponsor the building on of a flat, next to the elder's house. He used his savings to invest in the flat. Too cut a long story short, he fell and it took quite an effort to get him up. The elder did not want a repeat of this, so he decided to put him in a state home in a nearby town. Never paid back the money invested in the flat. My father, a non-Witness and my mother, a Witness, were some of the few that visited him. He eventually died, lying in his own faeces. I was disgusted at the actions of the so-called "brothers." By the way, the elder that housed him and stole the money was accused to be a pedophile. The girl that accused him were of questionable reputation. So they took his word rather than hers.