Posts by Vidqun

56

Old Greek Daniel's Son of Man

by peacefulpete in

again this is large topic, some of which has been discussed elsewhere on this site.

the basic question i want to discuss is the identification of the 'someone like a son of man" in daniel 7. as we all know christians understood the figure to be the messiah (christ), so the question posed is did the author intend it to be a singular personage or a collective symbol of the holy of israel as jews typically read it?

or how about the unexpected idea that the "someone like a son of man" was the very same character as the "ancient of days" in another role?.

Vidqun

Jesus referred to himself as "Son of man" approximately 60 times. Difficult not to make the connection.

7

renewed active cooperation of the WTG as an NGO at the UN

by Pedro in

there is news about the wtg's cooperation with the un as an ngo.. according to the un, every ngo is obliged by statute to actively work towards the goals of the un.. the historical case on the same topic, from 1992-2001, should be known.. at that time, the cooperation was exposed by a report in the british daily newspaper “the guardian” on october 8, 2001.. the wtg canceled its membership a day later under the pressure of outrage from some congregations.. many witnesses couldn't believe it and wrote to the un asking for information as to whether it was true.. the un response letter is still available on the un homepage.. here is the link to the un statement.

https://www.un.org/en/civil-society/watchtowerletter.

now it is time again!.

Vidqun

This is an Indian NGO and not connected to the UN. If the connection to the UN can be proved, I will believe. This is probably an NGO connected to the Indian Government.

66

My decision.

by MissDaSilva in

jw
friends

i’ve decided to disassociate from the jw organisation.

i cannot be part of a community that blatantly rejects the sacrifice of jesus in that demonic memorial ritual.

amazing what information you find when you start researching.. i’m writing my letter and posting it to the kingdom hall this morning.

Vidqun

Good decision. If some wants to know, Where will you go? Answer: I remain a follower of Christ and a worshipper of Jehovah. Nothing has changed.

John 6 is a good incentive to disassociate. It has some serious implications: "Accordingly Jesus said to them, Most truly I say to YOU, Unless YOU eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, YOU have no life in yourselves." (John 6:53 NWT) No room for spectators in this warning!

Another scripture I found helpful, is Rev. 7:1. When will the sealing of the 144,000 take place? This is clearly a future occurrence. The transition between chapters 6 & 7 of Revelation is introduced by the Greek phrase Καὶ μετὰτοῦτο (Rev. 7:1 Tischendorf’s New Testament, 8th edition; cf. NA28 footnote), “and after this,” “this” referring to the breaking of the sixth seal, specifically the kings of the earth and their followers, finding refuge in their underground shelters. This must still take place. So you are presumpteous to say the least if you view yourself as one of the 144,000.

Everything of the best with your new life.

62

Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

by Duran in

revelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?

what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.

what beast is the 8th king?.

Vidqun

No, obviously we're not on the same page. Please identify God's people from the thousands if not millions of churches? At this stage none of them qualify. The Philadelphia congregation represents all people on earth in the 21st century? Nope. I don't see it like that. It's a stretch.

Armageddon in Pidgin English is "the big buggerup." That's how I see Christendom at the moment. So unity must be established before the GT. I'm not going to go over it again. That would be boring. Clue: It has to do with the fulfillment on Joel and Acts. Soon!

Joel 3:1, 2: Who are the priests and who are the minsters? Please identify them so that I can join. There's thousand if not millions of denominations to choose from. At this stage I don't want to go there.

You've got this right. peirasmos/2346. thlibó = affliction/distress/calamity/suffering. It has quite a wide meaning. Notice test = suffering. Remember, Jesus was tested in the wilderness by Satan.

θλῖψις. Greek for “tribulation.” In our literature (as in LXX) frequently and in the metaphysical sense trouble that inflicts distress, oppression, affliction, tribulation. Of distress that is brought about by outward circumstances.

πειρασμός (= “test”) means “an attempt to learn the nature or character of something,” test, trial (Sir 6:7; 27:5, 7) πρὸς πειρασμόν to test you 1 Pt 4:12. διὰπειρασμόν τινα because you are being tried in some way Hm 9:7. Perh. Js 1:2 and 1 Pt 1:6 belong here (cp. Pind., O. 4, 22 διά πειράτοι βροτῶνἔλεγχο=trial is the test of mortals; sim. N. 3, 70f). Some translate passive Greek verb πειρασμός with “being tempted,” i.e., an attempt to make one do something wrong, temptation, enticement to sin. If this is the case, Jesus’ admonition to the Philadelphians might not refer to the Great Tribulation after all (cf. 2 Thes. 2:2, 3).

All the nations won't fit on the low plain of Jehoshaphat (= Jehovah is judge). Same goes for the Mountain of Megiddo. These I view as a world situation rather than a geographical location.

62

Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

by Duran in

revelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?

what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.

what beast is the 8th king?.

Vidqun

Without focusing on hour/time, what is the judgment that starts with the house of God?

This does not concern me at this stage. First the house must be constituted, then the judgment will start there. As yet I don't see God's house being established.

He was saying in a loud voice: “Fear God and give him glory, because the time of judgment by him has arrived, so worship the One who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and the springs of water.”] What judgment from God takes place there?

By this time, God's judgment is between Him and His enemies (Armageddon).

What is the test that is going to be put upon all dwelling on the earth?

As said, here Jesus is reassuring the first century Philadelphian congegation. As far as I know, it doesn't exist anymore. What was the test? Your guess is as good as mine.

62

Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

by Duran in

revelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?

what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.

what beast is the 8th king?.

Vidqun

Duran, yes, here we are on the same page. I also see it as that. Many in Christendom want a third temple to be built. The followng scriptures explain the real meaning of the temple. If one understands this, a lot of things start making sense.

16 Do YOU not know that YOU people are God's temple, and that the spirit of God dwells in YOU?

17 If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] YOU people are. (1 Cor. 3:16, 17)

16 And what agreement does God's temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said, I shall reside among them and walk among [them], and I shall be their God, and they will be my people. (2 Cor. 6:16)

21 In union with him the whole building, being harmoniously joined together, is growing into a holy temple for Jehovah.

22 In union with him YOU, too, are being built up together into a place for God to inhabit by spirit. (Eph. 2:21, 22)

6 For it is contained in Scripture, Look! I am laying in Zion a stone, chosen, a foundation cornerstone, precious; and no one exercising faith in it will by any means come to disappointment.

7 It is to YOU, therefore, that he is precious, because YOU are believers; but to those not believing, the identical stone that the builders rejected has become [the] head of [the] corner,

8 and a stone of stumbling and a rock-mass of offense. These are stumbling because they are disobedient to the word. To this very end they were also appointed. (1 Pet. 2:6-8)

Just about the contents, sequence and length of the GT that we differ. I follow in the main the natural chronology of Revelation, with a few exceptions. This I compared to Jesus' sermon on the Mount, especially Matthew's version. You construct your timeline according to events. So as time progresses, we will see what actually transpires.

Are you aware that 42 months = 1,260 days = time, times and half a time = 3 1/2 (prophetic) years? One month = 30 days. Daniel and John in Revelation use the same time keeping standard. And both Hebrew and Greek dictionaries confirm this.

On the other hand, seven means heavenly perfection. I will hold on to my seven years, until I am proven wrong. What puts me off from the seven years number is that Christendom also believe in a seven year tribulation period based on Daniel (9:27). Here I believe they are in error. The seventy weeks of Daniel is a unit which can be proved by grammar. So, the seventy weeks applies exclusively to Jesus' first coming. As you might have noticed, I use a different method of calculation.

Hour of judgment = GT/42-months? According to the book of Revelation, an hour is a relatively short period of time, definitely not 42 months. [Rev. 3:3; 11:13; 14:7, 15; 17:12; 18:10, 17, 19]

Hour of judgment is about to start (Rev. 14:7). Next he discusses the fall of Babylon and the fate of those worshipping the beast. In v. 14, we read of the son of man and the great harvest which is Armageddon. I believe the GT would have run its course by then.

The following is the only mention of “hour of test” in the book of Revelation. The following assurance was given to the first century congregation of Philadelphia: “Because you kept the word about my endurance, I will also keep you from the hour of test, which is to come upon the whole inhabited earth, to put a test upon those dwelling on the earth.” (Rev. 3:7, 10)

62

Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

by Duran in

revelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?

what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.

what beast is the 8th king?.

Vidqun

Duran, tell me about the temple. What do you think this is?

62

Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

by Duran in

revelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?

what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.

what beast is the 8th king?.

Vidqun

resulute Bandicoot, there's two prophecies that stand out for me. Keep in mind, the prophecy is nearly 2,000 years old: "And it performs great signs, so that it should even make fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of mankind." (Rev. 13:13). I am sure you have heard of DEWs: "A directed-energy weapon (DEW) is a ranged weapon system that inflicts damage at a target by emission of highly focused energy, including laser, microwaves and particle beams." See Wikipedia.

And how did John know the leaders of the nations have hidey-holes in the rocks: "And the kings of the earth and the top-ranking ones and the military commanders and the rich and the strong ones and every slave and [every] free person hid themselves in the caves and in the rock-masses of the mountains." (Rev. 6:15). John actually recognized that the prophet Isaiah penned a similar prophecy a few hundred years before him: “Enter into the rock and hide yourself in the dust because of the dreadfulness of Jehovah, and from his splendid superiority” (Isa. 2:10). Not bad for a guy tripping on magic mushrooms!

Duran, I would first suggest we distinguish between religious and political apostasy. First we have to get God's people together as discussed earlier. Hopefully it wll happen sooner than later (Joel 2:27-32; Acts 2:17-21). In the straits of the times the 144,000 will be sealed. According to the context, this will happen after the sixth seal (Rev. 6:17; 7:1-3). These must come out of the Israel of God which have to exist as such (Gal. 6:15, 16). Within the Biblical context "apostasy" is here used in a religious sense. Note what Wiki says:

Apostasy (Greek: ἀποστασία, translit. apostasía, lit. "defection, revolt") is the formal disaffiliation from, abandonment of, or renunciation of a religion by a person. It can also be defined within the broader context of embracing an opinion that is contrary to one's previous religious beliefs. One who undertakes apostasy is known as an apostate. Undertaking apostasy is called apostatizing (or apostasizing – also spelled apostacizing). The term apostasy is used by sociologists to mean the renunciation and criticism of, or opposition to, a person's former religion, in a technical sense, with no pejorative connotation (Wikipedia).

Enter the "man of lawlessness." This group will be infiltrating God's people similar to the group that infiltrated first century Christians after the death of the apostles. As you rightly pointed out, apostasy is also used in a religious sense by Daniel (11:34). The ranks of the Maskilim ("those with insight") are to be infiltrated by “smooth ones”: “But when they are made to stumble they will be helped with a little help; and many will certainly join themselves to them by means of smoothness [out of treachery, NAB].” Here the context indicates religious apostacy: "give consideration to those leaving the holy covenant" (v. 30). "And those who are acting wickedly against [the] covenant, he will lead into apostasy by means of smooth words." (v. 32). "refining work because of them and to do a cleansing" (v. 35; cf. 12:10)

This indicates difficult times ahead for God's people. This is brought out by an angelic vow in Daniel's epilogue: "... that it would be for a time, times, and half a time, and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be finished." (Dan. 12:7 ESV) With this information one can almost construct "the prophetic history of God's people during the Tribulation." This is expanded by the 2,300 evening-morning vision of Dan. 8.

Now for your questions: Sorry for the repetition, but I thought it necessary.

1) Subsequently, each time he mentions the mark and a person's fate, he qualifies it with "worship" (Rev. 13:16, 17; cf. 14:9, 11; 16:2; 19:20; 20:4). Just receiving the mark will not condemn a person. The "worship"-part will. What does "worship"mean?

Worship: To give one’s honour and allegiance to a higher power. To “express by attitude and possibly by position one’s allegiance to and regard for a higher authority.” See Louw-Nida. To “express in attitude or gesture one’s complete dependence on or submission” to a high authority figure or organization, in this case the beast, its image as well as the dragon (cf. Rev. 13:8, 12, 15; 14:11;16:2; 19:20; 20:4; cf. 13:4). See BDAG.

2) According to my understanding of Daniel and Revelation, the "man of lawlessness" wll come in power during the first half of the Tribulation (cf. Dan. 8 and 12) when the continual sacrifice is banned (continuity or continual sacrifice = Rom. 10:10-15; Heb. 13:10-16; cf. 1 Cor. 10:20, 21).

3) 1 Pet. 4:17 Not sure of this one. Let me think about it. I would think Mal. 3:1-3 would have something to do with it. Jesus also inspected the literal temple while on earth and threw out the money changers. But the when is the difficult part.

4) Hour of judgment. Within the context and general scheme of things, this final warning would be given, therefore must be referring to Armageddon. Just after this announcement, a summary of Armageddon is given.

62

Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

by Duran in

revelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?

what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.

what beast is the 8th king?.

Vidqun

Kosonen, I did explain my view and why I believe it to be so. I don't want to repeat it. if you feel you must refute what I have to say, do so, but with specifics. I don't approve of generalizations that doesn't go anywhere.

If that's how you want to interpret it, go ahead. But you are not taking the facts in consideration. It happened in Paul's day and it will happen again. I don't see any mention of the antichrist in the passage under discussion. People are quick to label a variety of things as the antichrist. Do yourself a favor and look up the Biblical definition of antichrist in John's writing. A lot of people qualify (1 John. 2:18, 22; 4:3; 2 John 1:7).

62

Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

by Duran in

revelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?

what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.

what beast is the 8th king?.

Vidqun

It won't be because of natural catastrophes that the UN is given authority it will be because of WW3. And yes, there will be the use of nuclear weapons to some degree.

Duran, I am not convinced that God will allow the nations to wage WW III or even a limited nuclear war. But I cannot be dogmatic about it. I do not know what God will allow or disallow. I just don't see it brought out in prophecy in a clear way. IMO what will bring the nations together is the natural catastrophes described in Revelation.

The MOL is the same as the 8th king/KOTN/disgusting thing.

Here I disagree. The man of lawlessness was already present in Paul's day (2 Thes. 2:7). It is described as an "apostacy" (v. 3). As soon as the restraint of the apostles are removed, when they die, he will be revealed (v. 7). This is an internal development amongst God's people. He will set himself up in God's temple, built with living stones (v. 4). The characteristics of these people are summarized in the same chapter (vv. 10-12). This hppened in the past and will be happening again. Jesus will personally deal with them during his Second Coming (v. 8). Nothing to do with the eighth king, which is a political entity.

That is not how those Scriptures truly read. Are you not conflating here in this case?

No, actually the only thing that I wanted to emphasize was that people will see what is happening and that they will react accordingly, i.e., "their hearts will faint out of fear."

Perhaps what you should do, is explain your sequence with a plan of Revelation, as I demonstrated earlier. How do you see it playing out? Do you recognize the natural chronology of the book as we have it today, not at all, or only certain parts? For example Beast from the abyss is still in the abyss at Rev. 17:8. It is out of the abyss at 11:7. So 17:8 comes before 11:7. Here it does not follow natural Revelation chronolgy. Another example. 7:9, 14 speak of people coming out of the tribulation, therefore I would see 7:9-17 as an insert. Same goes for 11:14-18.